Friday or Wednesday? Thursday?

[JD731]

Your arguments lend to confusion. Applying a different standard of interpretation to the scriptures than the one given to us from God will ensure that you will lack understanding. Judging the scriptures by your calendar is wrong. One must judge your calendar with the scriptures. The scriptures are Jewish. God became a Jew. Men must think like God, which is thinking like a Jew, to understand the great doctrines of God.

I have given you biblical evidence that proves God wants us to think that his Passover is on the sixth day with the following day being the sabbath of rest, and the day following that, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, being on the first day of the week.

The 7 day week is among the first things God established in human history. He worked 6 days and rested on the seventh day. He told us how he thinks about these days. He wants us to understand that he views these day prophetically as a thousand year days and as a regular day of evening and morning as one thousand years. So, his work of redeeming men through the cross of his Son is finished at the end of the sixth day and he rests on the seventh one thousand year days. After that all things are new and a new beginning takes place.

He gives 30 chapters out of 89 chapters in the four gospel accounts to establish these facts. These words trump First and Second Calendar Converter.

The problem in Christendom is that infiltrators have entered in among us teaching that the words of scripture are arbitrary and can be updated to better fit our own culture and needs. This attitude is a sell out of the Christian faith.

Would you likewise teach that Adam was created on Thursday?

 

[37818]

Your arguments lend to confusion.

Yes, your irrational arguments do lead you to your confusion.

 

[JD731]

Yes, your irrational arguments do lead you to your confusion.

I know it was fun for you to say that but I do not think I am being irrational for believing the scriptures answers our questions. It is alright to use other sources for a better understanding but it is not proper to make the words of scripture subservient to your source. It seems to me you have latched on to an idea and you are not turning loose no matter what the words of the scriptures says. It is obvious to me from your comments that you did not read most of my arguments and that is okay too. I take heart in the fact that irrationality is assigned to me by you because I dare to disagree with you.

 

[37818]

. . . I do not think I am being irrational for believing the scriptures answers our questions.

Doing that is not being irrational. But presuppositions which are not true leads being irrational.

 

[37818]

Mark 14:12-16, 14th of Nisan.
Mark 14:17, the beginning of the 15th of Nisan.
Mark 15:42, the end of 15th of Nisan sabbath so Joseph of Arimathaea could ask for Jesus' body for burial. Also being Thursday evening the beginning of the the Day of Preparation.

 

[37818]

Mark 14:12-16, 14th of Nisan.
Mark 14:17, the beginning of the 15th of Nisan.
Mark 15:42, the end of 15th of Nisan sabbath so Joseph of Arimathaea could ask for Jesus' body for burial. Also being Thursday evening the beginning of the the Day of Preparation.

 

[Alan Gross]

Where? I hold that Christ died and rose the third day solely according to the Scriptures. Matthew, Mark, Luke And John. According to Mark 15:42, He was taken from the cross Thursday evening at the beginning of the Preparation Day.

The Preparation Day for what?

A weekly Sabbath?

Or, one of the yearly High-Sabbaths? that took place on a different day of the week, in that same week?

 

[Alan Gross]

14:17 the beginning of the 15th day of the month following the 14th, Mark 14:12-16. And the beginning of the 16th of the month being also the beginning of the Preparation Day being the 6th day before the Sabbath being the 7th day, Mark 15:42.
". . . And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, . . ."

Are you sure this is the weekly Sabbath "being the 7th day?"

How about the Sabbath mentioned in Mark 15:42, are we just to automatically assume the day before the Sabbath was a weekly Sabbath, without putting any thoughts to it?

Mark 14:12-16, 14th of Nisan.
Mark 14:17, the beginning of the 15th of Nisan.
Mark 15:42, the end of 15th of Nisan sabbath so Joseph of Arimathaea could ask for Jesus' body for burial. Also being Thursday evening the beginning of the the Day of Preparation.

What day of the week do we find the 15th of Nisan Sabbath?

Is it the weekly Sabbath beyond any shadow of doubt?

Or was there any other Sabbath that week? On a different day?

 

[37818]

The Preparation Day for what?

A weekly Sabbath?

It was for the seventh day Sabbath being it was Thursday evening. The weekly Sabbath Preparation Day begins Thursday evening and ends with the seventh day Sabbath beginning Friday evening.

.

 

[37818]

What day of the week do we find the 15th of Nisan Sabbath?

Mark 14:17, the beginning of the 15th of Nisan.
Mark 15:42, the end of 15th of Nisan sabbath . . .

 

[37818]

Are you sure this is the weekly Sabbath "being the 7th day?"

Absolutely. As I have explained. Mark 14:17 was the beginning of the 15th Nisan sabbath. Mark 14:12-16 being the 14th.

 

[Alan Gross]

Mark 15:42, the end of 15th of Nisan sabbath

It was for the seventh day Sabbath being it was Thursday evening. The weekly Sabbath Preparation Day begins Thursday evening and ends with the seventh day Sabbath beginning Friday evening.

I am definitely not asking or talking about assuming that this Sabbath
is The weekly Sabbath or that it's Preparation Day began on Thursday or Friday, any time..

Absolutely. As I have explained. Mark 14:17 was the beginning of the 15th Nisan sabbath. Mark 14:12-16 being the 14th.

What day was the 15th Nisan sabbath,
assuming this Sabbath IS NOT THE WEEKLY SABBATH, on Saturday?

Mark 14:12-16; 12 "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

What 'passover' is that for?
that they prepared and ate on the first day of unleavened bread?
when they killed the passover,?

When was The first day of unleavened bread?
according to naming the right passover day,
which corresponds to the additional Sabbath that week, which wasn't on Saturday.

14:13 "And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.

14 "And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guest-chamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

15 "And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.

16 "And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover."

Mark 14:17; "And in the evening he cometh with the twelve."

John 19:31 is the one you want for the OP;
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."

The parentheses are in the Bible and what it says in them is the major clue.

High Sabbaths - Wikipedia

High Sabbaths, in most Christian and Messianic Jewish usage, are seven annual biblical festivals and rest days, recorded in the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy.[1][2][3] This is an extension of the term "high day" found in the King James Version at John 19:31.

The seven festivals do not necessarily occur on weekly Shabbat (seventh-day Sabbath) and are called by the name miqra* ("called assembly") in Hebrew (Lev. 23). They are observed by Jews and a minority of Christians.

Two of the sabbath (High Days, holy assemblies) occur in spring on the first and last day of the Feast of unleavened bread (Matzot**).

One occurs in the summer, this is the Feast of Weeks (Shavuot).

And four occur in the fall in the seventh month...


"The Gospel of John says of the day beginning following Christ's death,
"that sabbath day was a high day" (19:31–42).

That night (14th > 15th) ( of the day beginning following Christ's death (14th) was Nisan 15,

just after the first day of Passover (14th, Wednesday) week (Unleavened Bread, High Day Sabbath, 15th) and an annual miqra* and rest day, in most chronologies.


Mark 52:14; "And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath",

Nison is comparable to March-April on the civil calendar.
The Torah calls it chodesh ha-aviv —the month of spring,

I say this Sabbath in Mark 52:14 is the High Day Sabbath, Matzot**, Thursday Nison 15 and they are talking about it was the preparation day on Wednesday Nison 14, for it.

This yearly High Day Sabbath fell on Thursday.

All of the calculations going from a preparation day, a Passover day, or a Sabbath Day
must start with the proper Sabbath,
which is the High Day Sabbath, Matzot**, on Thursday Nison 15.

Jesus was crucified on Wednesday Nison 14,
the preparation day for the Sabbath High Day on Thursday Nison 15,

as well as Wednesday Nison 14 also being the passover for the Sabbath High Day, on Thursday Nison 15.

 

[37818]

What day was the 15th Nisan sabbath,
assuming this Sabbath IS NOT THE WEEKLY SABBATH, on Saturday?

The 15th is the day following the day of the Passover is killed and the first day of unleavened bread, the 14th.

What 'passover' is that for?
that they prepared and ate on the first day of unleavened bread?

False.

 

[timtofly]

In my view there is no mystery to this question but it is good to ask questions of the texts. It is how we learn, especially if we allow the texts to answer.

The Lord was crucified on Friday. I could give several verifying proofs from the scriptures. Since I have only five minutes to spare now I will give just one.

Lu 24:13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found [it] even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed [it], and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they told what things [were done] in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.

Counting backward from the third day. Sunday, (1), Saturday, (2) Friday (3).

Joh 20:1 The first day of the week (Sunday) cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Mt 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Jesus was in the tomb 3 days. Jewish reckoning is that any part of a day counts for a day. He was put in the tomb before the 12 hour on Friday, the day he was crucified. He was in the tomb on the sabbath, the 7th day. He rose very early in the morning on the third day, Sunday, the eighth day, the day in scripture of new beginnings. It is logical. It makes sense.

Did Jesus leave the tomb on Sunday though? Sunday was when the stone was rolled away about sunrise. That does not mean that Jesus left the tomb any time after 6pm, which is the start of Sunday. He was already gone before the stone was removed. He did not even have to be in the tomb at all on Sunday. So you cannot include Sunday in your calculation.

If you are going from the past why even include Sunday in their 3 days as partial. It could have been Monday already when they said 3 days. They would have meant that Sunday was a full day. You would then need 2 more full days since the day of the event. You are basing partial days out of thin air. Sunday was a full day. Saturday was a full day. Friday was a full day. They would be talking about an event that wrapped up on Thursday before 6pm.

Was Thursday the Passover Sabbath? In 33AD Nissan 15 was a Saturday. The day after a full moon. But why are people relying on human understanding? Jesus said:

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Jesus refutted the notion that they considered days as partial. You have Jesus in the grave for 24 hours. You cannot even include Sunday as a partial day. You have no proof Jesus was in the grave at all after 6 pm on Saturday. You don't even accept what Jesus said. You have part of Friday if his body was placed in the tomb around 5pm. Then part of Saturday, as you don't even know he was still there after 6pm. The soldiers were placed there, on Saturday, and prepared to remain how long, 2 more days? The angels came down within 12 hours, and the grave was empty. More than likely empty before the Soldiers arrived. How can you get the third partial day?

Did Jesus lie when He said 3 days and 3 nights? Now can we get 3 days in 33AD? No we cannot. In 33AD You only have an hour on Friday, and Jesus no longer there before 6pm the next day. The only reason that there is a Resurrection Sunday is because that is when humans realized the tomb was empty. No one knew the exact moment it was empty, because it was an angel who rolled the stone away. Humans were not involved in the process, waiting for an exact moment to see if the body was there. The soldiers were not told to check after x many days. They were told to seal the tomb so the body could not be stolen. Tell me why did the Jews post the Soldiers on Saturday, after 5pm, or even Sunday, 6pm, the evening of the beginning of the week? Had they already missed the first 2 days, and then remembered, "O, we should probably set a watch on the last day". Otherwise they would have sealed the tomb 2 days earlier on Thursday evening for the whole time.

"Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first."

Matthew 27:62-64

Saying the Cross happened on Wednesday gives us the full 3 days and 3 nights. The days being the 12 hours of daylight, the nights being the 12 hours of evening time. Jesus did not just say 3 combinations as in 2 nights and 1 day or 2 days and 1 night. You only allow for 1 evening and 1 day, the 24 hours of Saturday. That only makes 2 "partial days", both halves of the Sabbath.

3 days and 3 nights would be from 6pm the evening of Thursday to 6pm the evening of Sunday. That would have been the full days of Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. We don't have a guarantee that Jesus was in the tomb after 6pm that started the day of Sunday, the first day of the week. The angel did not roll the stone away at the start of darkness, as no one was around except those soldiers. The angel was sent at dawn, the start of daylight.

That brings us to the only other year, 30AD that would work out. Nissan 15 being on a Thursday would have been the Passover that year along with a Sabbath 2 days later.

Even the chief priests and Pharisees did not act in accordance with Jesus only being in the tomb for only 24 hours. Nor does it seem they sealed the tomb at the same time the body was placed there. From 6pm the evening of the Sabbath until 6 pm, 24 hours later, does not leave enough time for all that happened, even if what was written seems like only 24 hours. It is not logical if you deny the words of Jesus and start assuming many of your points.

Continued...

 

[timtofly]

The first assumption is stating the exact moment Jesus was not in the tomb, which is not stated.

The second assumption is using their context that a partial day can be understood as a full day and night. Jesus clearly stated 3 days and 3 nights to leave out any ambiguity.

The third assumption is the use of human logic. Those who go with 33AD, must also assume that Jesus was born at the exact 0 hour of the Calendar. Now the use of a calendar can be useful. Especially in attempting to figure out the year. That opens a whole different can of worms. Especially in this point I am commenting on, "the 3 days since these events occurred". How can one look back and still claim partial days? They did not say the event had occurred in the last 3 days. That day, that was about to end was the third day of time passing since the day of the event. Looking at a calendar, one would still count to 3, not say, "OK, the last 24 hours was 2 days, then a half day before that makes the third day. No, they would mean Sunday was one day, Saturday was one day, Friday was another day, leaving these events to happen during the day of Thursday. So what was the last significant event, other than placing the soldiers? Were the soldiers sent on Thursday evening around 6pm that started the evening of Friday? Obviously they would not be sent the day before Jesus was even crucified. So using Friday of 33AD cannot solve the dilemma that even the soldiers were told to guard the tomb for 3 days. Were they placed on Friday or Saturday? If Jesus was crucified and buried on Wednesday, then the soldiers could have been placed 24 hours later on Thursday, the last known event that had happened 3 days prior. Even 12 hours after the stone was rolled away the resurrection was not even an event in their thinking. They were still numb and still pointing out the last event, the placing of the soldiers to guard the tomb. That is why they did not recognize Jesus and Jesus had to explain it all over again starting with Moses.

 

[Alan Gross]

You're saying Wednesday was Nison 14(?) was the day Christ was crucified?

That would be the preparation day/ (14th, Wednesday) the first day of Passover week of Unleavened Bread.

Mark 52:14; "And now when the even was come,
because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath",

The next day.

"The Gospel of John says of the day Beginning following Christ's death,
"that sabbath day was a high day" (19:31–42).

That night (14th > 15th) ( of the day beginning following Christ's death (14th) was Nisan 15,

just after the first day of Passover (14th, Wednesday) the beginning of the week of Unleavened Bread, was a High Day Sabbath, 15th Thursday) and an annual miqra and rest day, in most chronologies.

If so, you got to Wednesday as the day Christ died without using the name of the High Day Sabbath, annual miqra.

Wow.

 

[Salty]

Let me check Wiki first

 

[timtofly]

Sure, but that's not the day Christ died. He died at approximately 3pm on Friday, which was still the day of preparation. The second day started at sundown, say 6 pm. The third day started at say 6pm on Saturday and Jesus arose from the dead in early Sunday morning.

Not how it works. They were preparing for the Passover, not Saturday. You choose Friday because that is the accepted Catholic teaching based on the conjunction of the Passover and Saturday falling on the same day that year. If one chose 32 AD as the year, then Jesus would have been crucified on Monday and Sunday would have been 6 days later.

You just happen to choose a year that blatantly contradicts Scripture or you use a flimsy excuse that 1 hour means 1 day and 1 night. If you use 33AD, then Jesus was born after King Herod had been dead for several years. How could Jesus be born after King Herod was already dead? If you use 33AD then Jesus was only in the grave 24 hours. You don't know when Jesus left the tomb. Even guessing it was a few hours into Sunday cannot add a full 2 days. Jesus being in the tomb 1 minute prior to 6pm does not change things. Even if in the tomb for a few hours does not equal 1 day and 1 night. Jesus did not say 2 days and a night. Jesus did not say partial 2 days and partial 2 nights and 1 day and 1 night.

If Christ died on Friday, according to Hebrew customs just like a day means a partial day, he would not even have been declared dead after 30 hours which is not the full 3 days and 3 nights required. Do you think they included partial days as a point of death as well? Jesus waited 4 days after Lazarus was declared dead. You don't even give Jesus 3 days.

Unless it does not matter to you that Jesus was crucified in preparation for the Passover? He could have been crucified on any Friday of any month of the year according to your logic.

 

[Salty]

On a serious note - if the Lord felt it was that important to know the exact day - he would have told us. As Pastor Bob would say - "no sense in chasing chickens"

 

[timtofly]

Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

This (the next day) would be day 1 - Sunday, after 6 AM

This is not exactly correct. You can't start the first day on the next day. Jesus arrived 6 days before the Passover and then ate an evening meal. You have to count down from the day Jesus arrived. They then fed him and evening supper.

"Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead. But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus."

These people did not come in the middle of the night. They all arrived on Saturday. Saturday would be the 2nd day Jesus was in Bethany so only 5 days left.

Then on the next day Jesus entered Jerusalem on the first day of the week with 4 days left. Sunday, he retired to the Mount of Olives. Early Monday morning back in the Temple. 3 days left. Monday evening once more teaching on the Mount of Olives. Tuesday morning back early in the Temple with 2 days left. Tuesday evening was the last supper, and then to the Mount of Olives to pray all night. He was arrested early that morning, leaving that day, Wednesday as the last day left. Wednesday was the crucifixion and the day of preparation. The Passover was on Thursday.

Sunday was not the day after Jesus arrived. Saturday was. Sunday was the day after every one was visiting Jesus and Lazarus. They did not arrive before Jesus did.

Saturday needs to be in the count. Saturday to Friday including both days is 7 days. If you count Saturday the day of the Passover that would be 8 days. Jesus arriving on Friday would be 8 days including the Passover. Or 7 days until the Passover. Leaving out the verses between the arrival and the one stating the next day took away a day or a day and a half. Jesus did not eat supper on the evening of Sunday, but the hours of the evening of the Sabbath. The people arrived in the morning the day after Jesus, and the day before Sunday, because Sunday was the day after the people arrived, not the day after Jesus arrived.

"Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead. But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;"

Now they want to kill both Lazarus and Jesus. This seems to imply that Lazarus was raised from the dead within a few weeks of the Passover. This is even indicated in John 11

"Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples. And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves. Then sought they for Jesus, and spake among themselves, as they stood in the temple, What think ye, that he will not come to the feast?"

They were already making preparations for the Passover. Then we see that Jesus does appear 6 days before the Passover. But they are fixing Jesus supper, and those looking for Jesus arrive in the morning and are with them on the Sabbath, not on Sunday. Then it states the day following that day was the triumphant entry.

If you count Sunday to Friday that is six days, but the way John writes does not indicate Jesus came on Saturday but on Friday before the Sabbath. Saturday to a Passover on Thursday is still 6 days including the day of Passover itself.

"Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him."

This does not say that Jesus did nothing all day, nor arrived on the Sabbath evening. One still could use the day Jesus arrived as being the 6th day before Passover.