...for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
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Isaiah 53...
- Thread starter Aaron
- Start date
No. I do believe that the Father gave His Son, and the Son gave Himself, to suffer and die under the curse.
The difference is you hold a relatively new idea about how this occurred. Rather than Christ suffering at the hands of the wicked by the predetermined plan of God you rewrite the passage to read Christ suffered at the hands of God. You swap God and Satan.
Yes, I agree.
Thank you. Will you please tell me what curse this was, who originated it and what difference you think it makes that Christ 'gave Himself to suffer and die under the curse'?
My belief is as old as the Bible. So you believe that the Bible is inaccurate at Isaiah 53:10. 'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.' Do you believe that it should be corrected to read, 'Yet it did not please the LORD to bruise Him; someone else has put Him to grief'?
How about Genesis 45:8? Do you alter it to mean 'So now it was you who brought me here, but not God'?
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No you don't. You read that as it is wrested in the OP. Not as it is clearly stated, that he was punished for the transgressions of His people.
You're insistance that Christ being our substitute in the sentence handed down to our sins is a new idea, has already been debunked.
You should probably stop repeating it.
God's Two Pictures of the Atonement in the Sacrifices
Arthur King
Active Member
No one was ever hung on a tree unjustly? Is that your argument? If someone was hung on a tree, they therefore are automatically guilty? If someone is innocent, it is impossible to kill them by hanging them from a tree?
By "took on our guilt," if you mean he took on our debt so that he could pay it, then yes. If you mean he actually became guilty in some way, then no. The entire atonement mechanism depends on him being innocent, just as the entire sacrificial system depends on the animals being without blemish.
Did you see the string of quotations from a previous thread in which I quoted theologians from Augustine to present day who all hold that the injustice of Jesus' death is central to the atonement mechanism? I can repost again if you didn't see it.
Arthur King
Active Member
God did not act unjustly. God can ordain events in which injustices take place without himself being unjust. God can ordain events in which sins take place without himself being sinful. Sorry if you feel I did not answer this question. I feel like I have said that many times in these threads.
Exactly.
"Which begs the question(s):
Who sold Joseph into Egypt?:
20 And as for you, ye meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Gen 50
Who moved David?:
And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah. 2 Sam 24:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 1 Chron 21:1
Who enticed Ahab?:
20 And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner; and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before Jehovah, and said, I will entice him.
22 And Jehovah said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, Jehovah hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets; and Jehovah hath spoken evil concerning thee. 1 Ki 22
Who afflicted Job?:
11 But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will renounce thee to thy face.
12 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah. Job 1
5 But put forth thy hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will renounce thee to thy face.
6 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thy hand; only spare his life. Job 2
Who tempted Christ?:
1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil Mt 4 [Mark 1:12]
Who sifted Peter?:
31 Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat: Lu 22
Who buffeted Paul?:
7 And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch. 2 Cor 12
Who killed Christ?:
10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even in him doth this man stand here before you whole.
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against his Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass. Acts 4"
Classical vs Latin Atonement
Arthur King
Active Member
There is a distinction between "God ordained an event in which X sin would take place" and "God did X sin."
God ordained that a tragic and unjust event would take place in which Dinah was raped. God did not rape Dinah.
God ordained that Jesus would be unjustly tortured and killed. God did not unjustly torture and kill Jesus.
God is not the author of sin. God is sovereign, but humans still have agency and can still act in sinful ways. To deny human agency in sin is to make God the author of sin.
...you're preaching to the choir Arthur!
The point is the Cross of Christ, and the curse he not only bore, but became. The curse causeless shall not come, but it did come upon Christ, not because of His own sin, but because of my sin of which He not only took ownership by His union with me, but which He became.
He received my just sentence in His body on the tree. And as the curse came, justice was satisfied.
That is a judgement that will never come upon me, and a death I shall never die.
The curse originated with Adam's disobedience. It is the wages of sin, which is death. You are blending this death with the Judgment (actually, you are replacing that death with Judgment). That is one way you have departed from traditional Christianity.
Your belief is not as old as the Bible. It is as old as the Presbyterian Church.
No. I believe that God sent Joseph. I also believe that God sent His Son.
Did The Serpent bruise His heel, or not?
@Martin Marprelate says Satan was too smart to do it. I guess he means God did it, alone.
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I warned you about lying. You had your chance to reform your behavior @Aaron .
I read that as Jesus was punished for the sins of His people.
The difference is that I do not add to the text.
I never said that Christ is not our substitute in the sentence handed down to our sins is a new idea.
Christ did suffer the wages of sin.
Again you are intentionally misrepresenting what I said.
I said that penal substitution is a new idea (that God punished Jesus instead of punishing us for our sins). Substitution as "instead of" rather than representative (like Adam and man) is biblical. Your misunderstanding is not.
I'm not lying, you just disagree with my caveat.
Maybe I misunderstood. Who punishes sin?
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
It seems like when you look at all these different aspects of the cross and the fact that Jesus was unjustly crucified, yet there is an aspect of this being the reason God can justify guilty sinners and still be just in doing so. And there is the aspect of Jesus being completely innocent himself yet bearing all our sin in himself. Add to this the fact that this seems to have been planned and orchestrated by the Triune God so that even the injustice of the trial and crucifixion was true it was God's sovereign plan and desire. And when you consider that there is an undeniable aspect of God's revealed attitude toward our sin to be a tendency best described as "wrath". And when you realize that the cross somehow caused a reconciliation between God and sinners. Well, I think if you take all this, and sit down and write out an explanation that covers everything - you will end up with penal substitution.