I am a Baptist

[JonC]

You're actually funny. I laughed out loud.

I have been ever since you claimed a theological education with two master degrees yet expressed complete ignorance in regards to historic theology.

That said, prove me wrong. I know there are movements within Reformed churches away from Penal Substitution Theory towards a more biblical view, but Refined Baptists are typically more dug in to their philosophy. Provide legitimate Reformed Baptist churches that do not teach Penal Substitution Theory.

 

[Piper]

I have been ever since you claimed a theological education with two master degrees yet expressed complete ignorance in regards to historic theology.

That said, prove me wrong. I know there are movements within Reformed churches away from Penal Substitution Theory towards a more biblical view, but Refined Baptists are typically more dug in to their philosophy. Provide legitimate Reformed Baptist churches that do not teach Penal Substitution Theory.

You did not say "teach". You said "If you join a Reformed Baptist Church you hold Penal Substitution Theory."

Stop twisting truth. You think that everyone who is in a reformed baptist church has to believe that. UNTRUE. Admit it, you spoke an untruth.

 

[Piper]

Ignorance of Theological History? I've read more church history than you could ever dream of.

 

[JonC]

You did not say "teach". You said "If you join a Reformed Baptist Church you hold Penal Substitution Theory."

Stop twisting truth. You think that everyone who is in a reformed baptist church has to believe that. UNTRUE. Admit it, you spoke an untruth.

I did say that. I corrected myself. Nobody knows what another holds as true. Most Roman Catholics I know hold doctrines they do not believe to be correct. It is their tradition.

But Reformed Baptist Theology does not leave the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement as a matter of "soul liberty". You may believe they do, but you are wrong.

 

[JonC]

Ignorance of Theological History? I've read more church history than you could ever dream of.

Logical fallacy. You don't know what I have read or studied and I do not know what you have read or studied.

That is why I am asking. You indicated, regarding theology, that you have two master degrees. But at the same time you have not come across the "Classic view" of the Atonement.

What two theology degrees do you have?

In full disclosure, I only have one. I have two degrees in theology but one is an undergraduate degree and one is a graduate degree.

So what were your degrees? Theology and Church History?

How did you earn those degrees without ever coming across the "classic view" of Atonement?


Also full disclosure - I studied the "classic view" and found Anabaptist Theology fascinating, but I also rejected it until several years ago. The difference is that I knew it existed within orthodox Christianity and you didn't. I was familiar with it while it is all new and confusing to you.

 

[Piper]

Logical fallacy. You don't know what I have read or studied and I do not know what you have read or studied.

That is why I am asking. You indicated, regarding theology, that you have two master degrees. But at the same time you have not come across the "Classic view" of the Atonement.

What two theology degrees do you have?

In full disclosure, I only have one. I have two degrees in theology but one is an undergraduate degree and one is a graduate degree.

So what were your degrees? Theology and Church History?

How did you earn those degrees without ever coming across the "classic view" of Atonement?


Also full disclosure - I studied the "classic view" and found Anabaptist Theology fascinating, but I also rejected it until several years ago. The difference is that I knew it existed within orthodox Christianity and you didn't. I was familiar with it while it is all new and confusing to you.

What a hoot you are.

You read things into what people say and go on these long rants.

 

[JonC]

What a hoot you are.

You read things into what people say and go on these long rants.

Me? You literally just accused me of posting that Penal Substitution Theory is new!!

 

[Piper]

Me? You literally just accused me of posting that Penal Substitution Theory is new!!

Did you say this? SECT? really?

 

[tyndale1946]

You're actually funny. I laughed out loud.

I'm a Primitive Baptist and I may not agree with many brethren on here but I interact with many beliefs, been on here so long how could I not... Is one a brother in Christ, if he has a different belief than mine and goes to a different church?... Are we all not Children Of God?... In the natural world if a brother has problems with a brother, there is usually sibling rivalry but they are still brothers... In blood... And even though Baptist disagree with other Baptist we are still brothers by blood... The blood of the Lamb... Those others have a different belief than mine, I'm Baptist proud of who I am, and those who are also Baptist should be proud of who they are!... Very few are going to change anyone's mind... An this Old Timer that has been here longer than most remembers Jesus's words from the sermon on the mount... And we should too!... Brother Glen

Matthew 5: 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[JonC]

Did you say this? SECT? really?


View attachment 8161

Isn't it neat how people, particularly dishonest people, are able to remove one word and change the meaning of a "quote".

Relatively new is not new. Penal Substitution Theory is a little over 600 years old. One cannot say it is new. But compared to the Christian faith, it is relatively new.

 

[JonC]

I'm a Primitive Baptist and I may not agree with many brethren on here but I interact with many beliefs, been on here so long how could I not... Is one a brother in Christ, if he has a different belief than mine and goes to a different church?... Are we all not Children Of God?... In the natural world if a brother has problems with a brother, there is usually sibling rivalry but they are still brothers... In blood... And even though Baptist disagree with other Baptist we are still brothers by blood... The blood of the Lamb... Those others have a different belief than mine, I'm Baptist proud of who I am, and those who are also Baptist should be proud of who they are!... Very few are going to change anyone's mind... An this Old Timer that has been here longer than most remembers Jesus's words from the sermon on the mount... And we should too!... Brother Glen

Matthew 5: 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Are you calling me a publican??? I don't even vote.

 

[Piper]

I'm a Primitive Baptist and I may not agree with many brethren on here but I interact with many beliefs, been on here so long how could I not... Is one a brother in Christ, if he has a different belief than mine and goes to a different church?... Are we all not Children Of God?... In the natural world if a brother has problems with a brother, there is usually sibling rivalry but they are still brothers... In blood... And even though Baptist disagree with other Baptist we are still brothers by blood... The blood of the Lamb... Those others have a different belief than mine, I'm Baptist proud of who I am, and those who are also Baptist should be proud of who they are!... Very few are going to change anyone's mind... An this Old Timer that has been here longer than most remembers Jesus's words from the sermon on the mount... And we should too!... Brother Glen

Matthew 5: 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

That was love. I was lovingly telling him that his views are hilarious.

 

[tyndale1946]

Are you calling me a publican??? I don't even vote.

Are you a publican or a Republican?... Now you can vote!... Brother Glen

 

[tyndale1946]

That was love. I was lovingly telling him that his views are hilarious.

I know you were just pulling his chain!... Sometimes his chain needs to be pulled, to keep him in line... We don't need a Mod with a big head... You know I love you Jon! (In brotherly way that is)... Brother Glen

 

[tyndale1946]

Did you say this? SECT? really?

View attachment 8161

Well I'm not going to get into this battle, it is what it is... And this is what I call my preacherism I've been collecting them over the years as far as the Substitution Theory goes... Here it is in its simplicity... Three in one and one in three and the one in the middle died for me!... You can use it if you want!... Brother Glen

 

[atpollard]

Reformed Baptist theology is dependent on the theory because it is dependent on Presbyterian doctrine.

I would respectfully disagree about the “Theology” (although I cannot speak to church membership in a congregation claiming ‘Reformed Baptist’ as a title). I came from Atheism through Wesleyan preachers and teachers (Church of God of Anderson, Indiana) and my personal efforts to reconcile their teaching with my Bible reading and salvation experience led me to my beliefs. It was one of those online quizzes that told me my beliefs were a 100% match to something called “Reformed Baptist”, so I attended a local Southern Baptist church to study the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message and check this whole “Baptist” thing out first hand.

I arrived at 4 of the 5 points of TULIP reading the Bible under Wesleyan instruction … WCF was not required. I only later learned that it had a name (Calvinism). TRUTH is TRUTH, irrespective of the source.

 

[DaveXR650]

Reformed Baptists have a high regard for Scripture, but they also have a high regard for Presbyterian doctrine in addition to Scripture. They are defined by the latter.

About 15 years ago the Baptist church I went to got into the Calvinist wars as often happens. I was working at a cancer center at a hospital and we had a Presbyterian chaplain who would always show up whenever a sales rep would provide a lunch for the staff. Since I understood very little of what was happening at church I used the opportunity to pick his brain on Calvinism since at least I knew those Presby's were Calvinists. After listening for a while he says "Man, I envy you guys". I was a little surprised and asked why. He said "I just wish I could get my people to be excited about something, anything". I just said, "Well, we're Baptists and we're always in an uproar about something". And I guess that's true. I guess Reformed Baptists would be Presbyterians that dunk everybody and are easily excitable.

 

[JonC]

I would respectfully disagree about the “Theology” (although I cannot speak to church membership in a congregation claiming ‘Reformed Baptist’ as a title). I came from Atheism through Wesleyan preachers and teachers (Church of God of Anderson, Indiana) and my personal efforts to reconcile their teaching with my Bible reading and salvation experience led me to my beliefs. It was one of those online quizzes that told me my beliefs were a 100% match to something called “Reformed Baptist”, so I attended a local Southern Baptist church to study the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message and check this whole “Baptist” thing out first hand.

I arrived at 4 of the 5 points of TULIP reading the Bible under Wesleyan instruction … WCF was not required. I only later learned that it had a name (Calvinism). TRUTH is TRUTH, irrespective of the source.

I'm not talking about the truth of a doctrine, only how that doctrine is presented.

The term "Baptist" refers to distinctives across a diverse set of beliefs.

Reformed Baptist is a more narrow term. The term is technically opposing words out together (Baptists cannot be Reformed, and the Reformed cannot be Baptists .... using the historic meaning of each word). It is a compromise (Presbyterian-Baptist, for example).

 

[JonC]

About 15 years ago the Baptist church I went to got into the Calvinist wars as often happens. I was working at a cancer center at a hospital and we had a Presbyterian chaplain who would always show up whenever a sales rep would provide a lunch for the staff. Since I understood very little of what was happening at church I used the opportunity to pick his brain on Calvinism since at least I knew those Presby's were Calvinists. After listening for a while he says "Man, I envy you guys". I was a little surprised and asked why. He said "I just wish I could get my people to be excited about something, anything". I just said, "Well, we're Baptists and we're always in an uproar about something". And I guess that's true. I guess Reformed Baptists would be Presbyterians that dunk everybody and are easily excitable.

Calvinism is divisive in non-Calvinistic churches. Free-will theology is divisive in Calvinistic churches.

Introduce an opposing view you get excitement. And it isn't bad. Often it creates conversations that can move a church to a more biblical position.

Spurgeon appreciated the debates between Particular and General Baptists. He said they were like rocks in a stream working on one another. The absolute truth lies somewhere in-between.

 

[DaveXR650]

Reformed Baptist is a more narrow term. The term is technically opposing words out together (Baptists cannot be Reformed, and the Reformed cannot be Baptists .... using the historic meaning of each word). It is a compromise (Presbyterian-Baptist, for example).

Yes. A lot of Reformed folks do not accept the idea of there being any such thing as "Reformed Baptists". I think it's pretty common nowadays for people to sort of pick out beliefs in a cafeteria style. A lot of folks in Reformed Baptist churches in the pews do not believe in limited atonement for example. Get on the internet and look at the "What We Believe" statements and most are very vague on that - leaving room for both on purpose. And it's not uncommon in Reformed Baptist churches to have cessationists and people waiting for the gifts to break out!