Featured A question for Cavinist

It has to do with the Absolute Sovereignty of God. Calvinists say that God is the Ultimate determiner of who is saved (Election) and that he has chosen them from eternity past.

An Arminian (not all, but generally) would believe that God allows man to be the final determiner, or that man has a free choice. He can either choose or reject Christ.

But it is not that simple, because a Calvinist would, in the same breath, say that man is responsible to believe, and he will be damned for his own sin and not believing in Christ.

There is not a simple answer, but I have tried to simplify it as much as possible.

IT IS NOT FATE. If anyone tries to turn Calvinism into fate they are misrepresenting it.

 

That's it, one way or another. Regardless of what false preaching they may hear, The Holy Spirit will bring the Elect person, in this life, under the preaching of His word to convict the sinner they are lost and in need of a Savior, BY enabling THEIR SOUL by His Spirit, TO HEAR the Gospel AND GOD will show them that Jesus Christ died because their sin was placed on Him.

That shows them their sin was absolutely hated by God and in Everlasting Love, God was pleased to place their sins upon His Own Son and Only-begotten Son, to have Jesus accomplish their salvation, by His death, burial, and resurrection, as the power of Eternal Life over death.

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that are lost.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

God receives ALL the Glory and HAS TO, because when correctly blessed to understand, all lost individuals are totally incapable of one single solitary thing they possess that could possibly merit or contribute to their salvation, in ANY way.

Period.

Jesus came to seek and save that which is lost.

There is none good, no not one.

No man comes unto Me except My Father draws them.

When Calvinists are against false teaching, it is generally because they are teaching that the unbeliever can and does contribute to their salvation 'with' God and for all those who truly, genuinely, sincerely believe that in their heart and soul as their way they were saved, then, that calls their salvation into question.

Were they lost and undone and hopeless without God, or did they trust in their own ability to be smarter than others to choose Christ by an act of their depraved, sin-cured, blind will?

Jesus said You will not come unto Me that you might have life.

While again on the other hand, the Elect WILL BE brought under the preaching of God's word AND WILL BE granted repentance of their sins and faith in Jesus Christ. GOD then CHANGES THEIR WILL, below the level of consciousness

and GIVES THEM A NEW HEART and WILL and BELIEF about themselves, which they are now willing to turn against (themselves and their own sin) and take sides with God (to repent/turn from their sins)

and GOD GIVES THEM A NEW HEART and WILL and BELIEF about Jesus, Whom they are now SPIRITUALLY ENABLED to TRUST when they receive THE NEW BIRTH, for the Eternal safekeeping of their soul and KNOW Jesus died for them, buried their sins away, and JESUS RAISED AGAIN for them.

These things write I unto you that you may know that you have Eternal Life.

 

There's a puritanical element within Calvinism that is judgmental, intolerant, fruit-inspecting, bigoted, due largely to the 'Lordship Salvation' doctrine that many of them hold to. It's NOT Baptist, it's Puritan/Presbyterian.

I'm not Calvinist. I'm a monergist. I hold to Sovereign Grace.

 

I can't speak for ones who call themselves "Calvinists", but the only reason that I would address false teaching is because it's a matter of truth versus error.

I agree.

It's both.
This is why God's elect mark and avoid false teachers, especially when they come to understand the truths of His word for themselves.

They also only have "ears to hear" God's very words ( versus the words of men ), and it is the Lord who is their Teacher... how and why they come to truly understand the Scriptures is His work, and is not in any way dependent upon men.

 

According to Calvinism, YES.

As has been stated to me a number of times by Calvinists on this board. The elect were chosen by God before the foundation of the world and only they can be saved.
So for the Calvinist
For the absolutely elect must have been saved without Christ;
and the non-elect cannot be saved by Christ

One of the leading Calvinists stated their position
“A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved”. [L. Boettner The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Page 75]

 

In the same vein as John 8:47, John 10:26-27.

 

Context KY context.

In both cases you posted it is a matter that the Jews should have known who Christ was through their scriptures. So it is not God that causes them not to know who Christ was but there refusal to accept who He was.

As Christ said they had lots of evidence, miracles, fulfilled prophecy that pointed to who He was and yet many of them did not trust in Him those that did followed Him

Sorry KY nothing in those verses support your "saved so they will believe" theory.

 

BINGO!

 

That's not even close to the scripture I referenced. The gist of those passages is those that belong to Him believe, those that do not belong to Him CANNOT believe.

 

There you go again KY, not looking at the context.

Re Joh_8:47

If Joh_8:37 {you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you} is any guide, “they” probably refers to the same unbelieving Jewish leaders who had opposed Jesus throughout this conversation (Joh_8:13, Joh_8:19, Joh_8:22, Joh_8:25).

Re Joh 10:26-27

Jesus encouraged those whom He declared were not His sheep/followers to consider the evidence of His miracles in order to believe in Him and become His sheep/followers. Joh_10:37-38

There's a huge difference between diagnosing why a person doesn't believe versus telling them why they cannot believe. For the calvinist they need to read this text as "But you CANNOT do not believe" Joh_10:26

Another way to say this could be "But you do not believe and it is not because you cannot it is because you will not. You have made the choice to reject me.

KY reading verses in context will clear up many of your misunderstandings of scripture.

 

The thoughts of our flesh without God or His Word are not God's thoughts.

The thought of God is that JESUS IS THE SAVIOR.

The thought that mankind has something to do with delivering themselves from their status before God as being a wretched, putrefying worm, at best, is called THE FLESH.

The Flesh is the business of Arminianism.

The Glory of God is God's business and the business of the proponents of the Eternal Truths and Spiritual Reality of the Bible Doctrines of Grace, commonly referred to by the derisive slang term. "Calvinism".

Calvin didn't invent the Eternal Truths of the Manifold Wisdom and Whole Counsel of God that Exalt and Worship the One and Only, True and Trice Holy Godhead.

Unconditional Election means that there was no condition whatsoever by which it pleased God to select His Chosen children, from the Counsel of Salvation in Eternity Past. No Elect child of God had ever done any good or evil and were neutral when God selected some or many, for His Son Jesus to die for the sins (specifically) of His people (specifically) Matthew 1:21 (Limited Atonement).

Irresistible Grace means that when that whom God Elects and Predestinated, them He also orchestrates as the Sovereign God of the Universe to have His Holy Spirit ensure that His children are born and grow up, as the Total Depraved naturally born sinners that they are, are brought under the preaching of God's Word.

The Holy Spirit will then Irresistibly CALL that chosen sheep and God is Glorified in the entire process of using the preachers and the instrumentality of His Word to save sinners, through the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection.

Whom He Irresistibly Calls, them He also pardons of their sin and Justifies and whom He Justifies the He also Grants Preservation and a continual Providential protection to his saints that He has Sealed with the Holy Spirit until they are also one day, Glorified.

Jesus is the Savior and those who are Ordained to Eternal Life, believe, BY THE GOOD PLEASURE of GOD'S WILL.

That is how God saves a soul, Biblically speaking. If someone denies "Calvinism"/ The Doctrines of Grace, or for example, Total Depravity, why don't they know how God saves souls? Where is their "teachable Spirit"? Do they have the Holy Spirit of God in their soul by the New Birth, or do they not?

No matter how many false preachers there are, God will see to it that the souls of His chosen children will be brought under the true teaching of His Message that sinners are lost and Jesus is the Saviour, AT THEIR APPOINTED TIME, to the saving of their soul by the New Birth.

9 Things You Should Know About Prosperity Gospel Preacher Paula White

"White teaches that “salvation includes healing” and that physical healing and financial abundance in this life are provided for in the atonement of Christ. Linne also noted that White frequently makes false claims while saying she is speaking for God:

"As sincere as Paula White may be, she is extremely reckless in the many false things that she says God told her to tell her listeners. The videos I provided are enough. Just go back and listen to how often she says God is saying something that he could not possibly be saying to everyone listening to her at the time. “You are not going to die of sickness” is just one of many examples I could give."

As far off as a money-whore like Paula White is on the Atonement, she is not as far off as those who deny the Penal Substitutionary Atonement, and whether God's Word goes forth out of contention or strife, if she reads the word of God about Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, the Holy Spirit can and will use God's word to save the Elect. God's Word does not return void, by the Sovereign Providence of God and will accomplish that which the Lord sends it to do. God knows where His Elect are and He will seek and save that which is lost, by sending His messengers, from one end of the earth to the other.

Then, as Dave G says, "My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me" and not that of a stranger.

Also, "Joel Osteen has been very clear many times that he doesn't talk about hell, sin, or damnation, or anything that is hard to hear."

I believe that's called "tickling the ears" of the lost. Not good.

The topic of Calvinism vs Arminianism is exclusively and entirely Spiritual that is resolved when God empresses upon the heart an understanding of the lost soul's utter and Total Depravity.

Total Depravity being the natural Spiritually dead State of all human beings born from Adam, with the Constitution of their soul being Godless, God-hating, an enemy of God, with only the capability of sinning and Offending God more every second, leaves a lost sinner at the absolute dependence upon God to Initiate and Accomplish their salvation.

Jesus is the Author of our faith and Jesus is the Finisher of our faith.

With their contention that a lost soul is the Author and finisher of their faith, they are not only lying to themselves and lying to everyone else if they say that is not what they truly believe, since they will throw a little 'Jesus' lingo in there somewhere, their position, Spiritually, is the recipe for being lost, blind, hopeless, helpless, and Hell- bound.

The seriousness of the C vs A debate is the difference between an Eternity with God in Heaven and an Eternal Hell in the Lake of Fire.

If an Arminian actually, genuinely, in their heart and soul are dependent on what they say they believe and teach, they have never been lost.

If they believe what they teach, they are lost.

[Snip]

As they stand in their religion, they are well and will sing, "It is Well with My Soul", but the entire infinitely important point is that Jesus said the well need not a physician, but the sick.

 

Some may like to argue but I would rather discuss various point of disagreement. Things tend to get a bit hot when you think you have to win an argument.

 

As I pointed out earlier:

Scripture is very plain on it:

"...If God were your Father, ye would love me....Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil..."

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

Reiterated by Paul:

14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor 2

 

KY if you really want to understand the bible you have to stop treating it as if it were a book of one liners.

Another way to say this could be "But you do not believe and it is not because you cannot it is because you will not. You have made the choice to reject me.

KY reading verses in context will clear up many of your misunderstandings of scripture.

Read post # 14 again.

 

I can't say whether they would or would not be under false teaching. But the Bible clearly teaches that God always uses means to accomplish his purposes, so they would, somewhere, hear true teaching.

And this falsely presented idea that, and I must quote it:

"For the absolutely elect must have been saved without Christ;"

is absurd. Everyone who is saved is saved through Christ. Everyone.