I am a Baptist

[Salty]

But EVERY Baptist church is independent - we may join a local, State and/or a national group - each local Baptists church is independent of any other group.

 

[Alan Gross]

Piper - if you wish, you can always put someone on ignore

Can't put a Moderator or Administrator on ignore though right?

 

[JonC]

Can't put a Moderator or Administrator on ignore though right?

No. You have to exercise personal discipline if the member is on staff.

 

[JonC]

But EVERY Baptist church is independent - we may join a local, State and/or a national group - each local Baptists church is independent of any other group.

At one time....but what about "satellite churches" where local congregations belong to a "mother church"?

 

[Salty]

At one time....but what about "satellite churches" where local congregations belong to a "mother church"?

In practice - they are still part of the "mother church"
But the purpose should be to grow and then "graduate" to autonomous status.

Quick true story.
While in Germany - a church started a mission in Zweibruecken.
(maybe 30 miles between the two)
At one point mom church told mission - cancel your evening service
and worship with us. -- Zweib said "NO"! Mom church said you must
and what will you do about it! Zeib said we will just leave your church and
start our own church! Mom said - well you cant use the bldg - Zweib - said
fine! but you will have to pay the monthly rent - for the next 9 months - as you signed the lease.

Mom church - okay - you can graduate to an autonomous church!

I was not there at the time - but I did become church clerk and read this in the minutes.

 

[JonC]

In practice - they are still part of the "mother church"
But the purpose should be to grow and then "graduate" to autonomous status.

Quick true story.
While in Germany - a church started a mission in Zweibruecken.
(maybe 30 miles between the two)
At one point mom church told mission - cancel your evening service
and worship with us. -- Zweib said "NO"! Mom church said you must
and what will you do about it! Zeib said we will just leave your church and
start our own church! Mom said - well you cant use the bldg - Zweib - said
fine! but you will have to pay the monthly rent - for the next 9 months - as you signed the lease.

Mom church - okay - you can graduate to an autonomous church!

I was not there at the time - but I did become church clerk and read this in the minutes.

We had a church take over (not hostile) another church and make it a different campus. I see this more and more around here. One church but several campuses....and each campus is a different congregation.

That church down the road from me is doing well. It is growing. But I don't think it meets the traditional view of "Baptist" (just like elder led isn't traditionally Baptist).

 

[Alan Gross]

I think I would like a clarification on that. The statement that the Church in our day has “a completely different understanding of the gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ” from that held by the Church throughout history is a very serious statement to make.

The Gospel, since time began and before, was and is the Eternal Plan of Salvation for the Elect of God that Jesus agreement to Accomplish and the Holy Spirit agreed to Execute. The three Persons in the Triune Godhead have had Infinite delight and joy among and between One Another that this Plan would absolutely succeed Forever, forever.

The Gospel is that Jesus would die as a Perfect Sacrifice for the sins of His people, that He would be buried and bury those sins away that He died for, and on the third day Rose Again from the dead, having the power of Life over death.

Some broad allusions to the effect of Jesus' Eternally Efficacious Work of Salvation are made which includes Jesus'Work, such as the Gospel of the Kingdom or the Gospel of John that are used but a reference to the historical significance of the Source of the Power behind Jesus' Kingdom or a book about The Work of Jesus are not "the power of God unto salvation" God refers to.

The Gospel that God uses as the means by which to Glorify His Son and saves souls, when Executed by the Holy Spirit, by the foolishness of preaching is defined in the words, "the Gospel", specifically by Paul;

I Corinthians 15: "1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received,

how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried,

and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The Gospel used by God to save souls is Biblically defined as the death, burial, and resurrection of The Savior, Jesus Christ.

That Gospel has been the same Gospel message 'declared' by God's witnesses, to save souls since it was preached to Adam and Eve.


"2 Corinthians 5:14: “For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this that one died for all. Therefore all died.” This verse obviously talks about a substitutionary death—Christ died for us.

"2 Corinthians 5:21: “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” Jesus Christ came to pay the penalty for your sin. Until you come to grips with the fact that you are a sinner, separated from God and under His condemnation, you cannot be saved. The penalty for your sin is not church membership, baptism or anything else. It is death.

"Galatians 1:4: The Lord Jesus Christ is the One “who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.” He gave Himself for our sins; He paid the penalty and provided atonement.

"Galatians 3:13: “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law.” How did He do it? By “having become a curse for us, because it is written, cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.” He came under the condemnation of sin. He became a curse and took the judgment that was due us by paying our penalty.

"Romans 5:6-8: “For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” This is the amazing message of the gospel in a nutshell—Christ died for us.

"The next phrase in 1 Corinthians 15:3 says that Christ died for our sins “according to the Scriptures.” Paul was not referring to any particular Scripture, but to all the Old Testament Scriptures that emphasize God providing a Savior who would die and pay the penalty for sin.

"Earlier in this letter, Paul alluded to one such Old Testament passage when he said, “For Christ our Passover has been sacrificed” (1 Cor. 5:7). The death of Christ was our Passover lamb being sacrificed."

ref: Christ Died for Our Sins According to the Scriptures | Indian Hills Community Church

The Atonement of Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection that was typified by all of the Old Testament sacrifices, signify the uniqueness of True Christianity from all other religions, and is the same constant message throughout history, as a Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

 

[JonC]

The Gospel, since time began and before, was and is the Eternal Plan of Salvation for the Elect of God that Jesus agreement to Accomplish and the Holy Spirit agreed to Execute. The three Persons in the Triune Godhead have had Infinite delight and joy among and between One Another that this Plan would absolutely succeed Forever, forever.

The Gospel is that Jesus would die as a Perfect Sacrifice for the sins of His people, that He would be buried and bury those sins away that He died for, and on the third day Rose Again from the dead, having the power of Life over death.

Some broad allusions to the effect of Jesus' Eternally Efficacious Work of Salvation are made which includes Jesus'Work, such as the Gospel of the Kingdom or the Gospel of John that are used but a reference to the historical significance of the Source of the Power behind Jesus' Kingdom or a book about The Work of Jesus are not "the power of God unto salvation" God refers to.

The Gospel that God uses as the means by which to Glorify His Son and saves souls, when Executed by the Holy Spirit, by the foolishness of preaching is defined in the words, "the Gospel", specifically by Paul;

I Corinthians 15: "1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received,

how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried,

and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The Gospel used by God to save souls is Biblically defined as the death, burial, and resurrection of The Savior, Jesus Christ.

That Gospel has been the same Gospel message 'declared' by God's witnesses, to save souls since it was preached to Adam and Eve.


"2 Corinthians 5:14: “For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this that one died for all. Therefore all died.” This verse obviously talks about a substitutionary death—Christ died for us.

"2 Corinthians 5:21: “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” Jesus Christ came to pay the penalty for your sin. Until you come to grips with the fact that you are a sinner, separated from God and under His condemnation, you cannot be saved. The penalty for your sin is not church membership, baptism or anything else. It is death.

"Galatians 1:4: The Lord Jesus Christ is the One “who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.” He gave Himself for our sins; He paid the penalty and provided atonement.

"Galatians 3:13: “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law.” How did He do it? By “having become a curse for us, because it is written, cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.” He came under the condemnation of sin. He became a curse and took the judgment that was due us by paying our penalty.

"Romans 5:6-8: “For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” This is the amazing message of the gospel in a nutshell—Christ died for us.

"The next phrase in 1 Corinthians 15:3 says that Christ died for our sins “according to the Scriptures.” Paul was not referring to any particular Scripture, but to all the Old Testament Scriptures that emphasize God providing a Savior who would die and pay the penalty for sin.

"Earlier in this letter, Paul alluded to one such Old Testament passage when he said, “For Christ our Passover has been sacrificed” (1 Cor. 5:7). The death of Christ was our Passover lamb being sacrificed."

ref: Christ Died for Our Sins According to the Scriptures | Indian Hills Community Church

The Atonement of Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection that was typified by all of the Old Testament sacrifices, signify the uniqueness of True Christianity from all other religions, and is the same constant message throughout history, as a Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

Two questions:

What did Jesus say was the gospel?
Does it matter what Jesus said?


My point is you are not talking of the actual gospel of Jesus Christ but of your understanding about the gospel.

For example, traditional Christianity has held that the Lord Jesus Christ is the One who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.

But after the Protestant Reformation some men changed this to read that Jesus rescued us from God Himself, by taking our punishment instead of us.

I point this out because too often congregations seek to own a history that does not belong to them.

 

[Salty]

We had a church take over (not hostile) another church and make it a different campus. I see this more and more around here. One church but several campuses....and each campus is a different congregation.

That church down the road from me is doing well. It is growing. But I don't think it meets the traditional view of "Baptist" (just like elder led isn't traditionally Baptist).

I am not a fan of churches with multi-campuses - as in reality they are two separate churches. (remember the church is the people - not the building) Same goes for churches with several services - normally people will either attend the early service and others the latter one. Again - in essence -they are two separate churches. IMHO when a church outgrows its building - it is time to take several members from the same geo area and start a new church.

 

[Alan Gross]

What has been lost today is Christian history.

Unfortunately, your idea of 'Church History' is not Jesus' idea He showed with His Revelation of the seven churches of Asia. Any Biblical History would not be of 'Church History', but of The History of Churches.

You have not received a revelation from your study of Landmarkism or here or anywhere, like the Bible, that a church Jesus always referred to was an organized congregation of Scripturally baptized believers, with the Authority and Presence of God to bring Him Glory and conduct His business on earth as His witnesses.

Jesus began His Revelation of His churches He Divinely Originated, by using a Greek word Ecclesia, Greek Ekklēsia, (“gathering of those summoned”), in ancient Greece, assembly of citizens in a city-state. Its roots lay in the Homeric agora, the meeting of the people. The Athenian Ecclesia, for which exists the most detailed record, was already functioning in Draco’s day (c. 621 BC).

The word Jesus used was the word Jesus meant and intended, by His use of it 22 times. The other New Testament writers used the same word and taught the same usage of it, by further defining her as a building using an Architectural metaphor, house, as well as "the church of God that is in the house) assembly, gathering, together, body (with a detailed anatomical metaphor explaining how a human body is one intact body, with many body members and one head) and as a temple, etc.

The use of the word church, exclusively as a called-out and summoned together assembly, nor the Ability of the Holy Spirit to ensure a continual presence of these candlestick lighthouse witnesses of Jesus', has not atrophied or ceased to exist, leaving Jesus a dead Bride(?) starting with Jesus immersing His church at Jerusalem with the Presence, Guidance, and Teaching Ministry of the Shekinah Glory on the Day of Pentecost.

The Almighty Power of the Holy Spirit has Provided Him s Dwelling Place to bring God Glory, throughout all ages, world without end.

"In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." Ephesians 2:22.

Once, God is pleased to reveal a Biblical understanding of what His Word uses church to mean, and stand for a local assembly of His, only, then the following scriptures are all The History of Jesus' Churches one would ever need,

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18.

Unto him be glory in the church* by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. Ephesians 3:21.

For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. I Corinthians 11:26.

besides,

Revelation 12:6

“And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days",

which would settle any confirmation needed from secular history as you make a qualified allowance for in your next comment;

I agree that there have been Baptistic churches throughout history.

There has just never been any Universal Visible Church that has anything to do with God or the Bible or the Bible word church or any Universal Invisible Church that came from the first usurptation of the word church, by the evil wicked one.

For some reason many Baptists have also taken the idea of "church" from the Catholics

Anything the Catholics got from the Baptist-like New Testament churches that they counterfeited doesn't give them any Authority from God and no, your continual insisting Baptists got anything from Catholics other than new words like 'mid-evil torture chamber' and 'Inquisition', etc., are wild rash guesses that fall flat.

look for a string of "true churches" throughout history which necessitates denying historic theological development.

What "historical theological development" is required beyond the written Word available at any given time?

The Doctrines of Grace are Eternal and were taught throughout the Old Testament beginning in Genesis and Job and all the Apostles were well versed in what the Lord's churches were and how they were to operate, as is the Holy Spirit who speaks through their Records in The New Testament and Established and Added to Jesus' Churches, throughout all of New Testament history.

Although, you may not believe it, these 5 distinctive marks characterize the Lord's kind of local churches, from The New Testament until now;

the Lordship of Jesus Christ, the Bible as the sole written authority, soul competency, and salvation by faith in Jesus Christ alone."

Add to those four, believers' baptism and you have enough for Catholics and Protestants to have killed 50 million of them, throughout all ages since the time of Christ.

They all characterize positions which the Catholics and Protestants vastly departed from, and in turn crucified and slaughtered every like faith and order believer in Jesus, His Word, and His churches they could get away with.

The error comes in when people believe "Baptist like us".

The problem is departing from The Lord and His teachings.

Who determines the criteria?

The Lord, through His Preserved teaching in the New Testament.

Why believers baptism?

Because, that is the New Testament teaching and all who were saved in The New Testament were baptized or re-baptized by the Authority of God given to His churches.

For example, the if the criteria of a "true church" was an understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ then penal substitution would be a sign of a false church

According to pagans, maybe. They don't believe in Penal Substitution.

OR the true Baptistic like church is very young (no Baptistic church affirmed penal substitution until the first half of the 17th century).

Please, consider yourself informed that your dating of who believed what when, in such general broad brush statements without substantiation, must be acknowledged, at best, gratuitous assertions.

My point is you are picking out what to look for in history.

You're jolly well right I am.

Don't hijack my thread with the anti-Penal Substitution Theory.

Well

those five beliefs held by the churches Jesus built in The New Testament

Oh, I already said it.

Conversely, were one to claim they could prove there was a time period, during The New Testament Era when there wasn't a body of believers somewhere that held to Baptist-like Doctrine and
the Lordship of Jesus Christ,
the Bible as the sole written authority,
soul competency,
salvation by faith in Jesus Christ alone,
believers' baptism by immersion,
starting and including the church that Jesus built Himself, I believe they would have a tall order and one that is contrary to plain Bible teaching;

Again, the issue is most often of our Baptistic churches only look like past Baptistic churches superficially.


How can we focus on Baptistic distinctives and ignore that they had an entirely different understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

They would no longer be in contention via believers baptism, useless we are screwed up on our position on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[JonC]

Unfortunately, your idea of 'Church History' is not Jesus' idea

This is incorrect.

I am talking about historical theology (positions people held throughout history). I am not saying they were correct.

You point to churches that held an understanding of the gospel you reject as being a "true church". I agree they were true churches. But we should not ignore differences to pretend they were "like us".

You hold a faith that is indebted to the Roman Catholic Church, the Reformers (especially the Presbyterian and Lutheran Church) and Anabaptist churches.

And that is fine.

I believe it is wrong, but it is perfectly acceptable.

But we have to be honest about history, even when we disagree with the beliefs they held.

Our nation is increasingly striving to rewrite history. Christians don't need to join that cause.


Prior to the 17th century, no church that practiced believers baptism, for example, affirmed penal substitution. They held what you call a screwed up position on the gospel. Yet they were the ones practicing believers baptism, NOT the ones who held your view of the gospel (until the 17th century they were baptizing infants).

 

[Alan Gross]

I see something about;

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

in I Corinthians 13:8, but I don't see what you're saying about;

1 Cor 13 is clear that the gifts will remain until Jesus returns

(?)

 

[JonC]

I see something about;

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

in I Corinthians 13:8, but I don't see what you're saying about;

(?)

but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

Some believe this "perfect" refers to the accumulation of the books of the Bible into one text.

Some believe this refers to Christ.

Another view is this is a principle (when the perfect comes then the less than gifts pointing to what is perfect are no longer needed....but love remains).

 

[Alan Gross]

However, my foundation has always been BIBLICAL and EMPIRICAL, because any “Truth” that doesn’t work in those two areas is useless to me.

Bible: "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. (= L)

We see L in there by seeing it read as, And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people (specifically) from their sins (specifically).

I believe that is plainly what God's intentions are on what it says, then along with the other four, and comparing scripture with scripture (those that restrict and 'limit' "all", by "many", in other places for example, then it fits like a hand in a glove.

("All" doesn't 'restrict' orr expand "many".)

 

[Alan Gross]

Some believe this "perfect" refers to the accumulation of the books of the Bible into one text.

Right.

Some believe this refers to Christ

Oh. That tell's me what he is saying.

Of course, among the many other things is the prophecy of when Jesus came the first time and said that after He died and before He Anointed the Most Holy on Pentecost, ( according to me), it is said, in Daniel 9; to bring an end "and to seal up the vision and prophecy"

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[Alan Gross]

The gospel is that the kingdom of God has come. The reason that Jesus proclaimed it as the gospel (the "good news") is that Israel had looked to the Messiah who would free them from bondage (they thought in a worldly way, but Jesus explained that His kingdom is not of this world).

If I put "the kingdom of God has come" inserted where "Gospel" is in this quick search of verses, it digs into the Bible deeper and comes up dryer that a first year Greek student.

Galatians 1 helps define the definition of "Gospel" in the very context of another Gospel, as being the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I'd go with repenting and believing Jesus died for 'our' sins, buried those sins away, and Raised from the dead with the Everlasting Power to save from sin, as something to try inserting in those verses in place of the word "Gospel", because that is how God says He saves lost souls.

1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him...


... What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher ...
1 Corinthians 9:18 - The Rights of an Apostle

... Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will ...
Philippians 1:27 - Worthy of the Gospel

... In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. In the same way, the Lord ordered that those who ...
1 Corinthians 9:14 - The Rights of an Apostle

... For when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, since I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! Yet preaching the Good News ...
1 Corinthians 9:16 - The Rights of an Apostle

... On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised. Instead, they saw ...
Galatians 2:7 - The Council at Jerusalem

... which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. but is not the Good News at all ...
Galatians 1:7 - No Other Gospel

... I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. Dear brothers and sisters, I want you to understand that the gospel ...
Galatians 1:11 - Paul Preaches the Gospel

... When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet ...
Galatians 2:14 - Paul Confronts Cephas

... And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from ...
2 Corinthians 4:3 - The Light of the Gospel

... We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. But we refused to give in to them for a single ...
Galatians 2:5 - The Council at Jerusalem

... Truly I tell you, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her." I tell you the truth ...
Matthew 26:13 - Jesus Anointed at Bethany

... a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and ...
Galatians 2:2 - The Council at Jerusalem

... This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. And this is ...
Ephesians 3:6 - The Mystery of the Gospel

... Truly I tell you, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her." I tell you the truth ...
Mark 14:9 - Jesus Anointed at Bethany

... Moreover, as you Philippians know, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter ...
Philippians 4:15 - The Generosity of the Philippians

... For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. ...
Romans 1:16 - Unashamed of the Gospel

... because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, for you have been my partners in spreading the Good News about Christ from the time you first heard it ...
Philippians 1:5 - Thanksgiving and Prayer

... But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse! Let God's curse fall on ...
Galatians 1:8 - No Other Gospel

... As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you, Surely you remember that I was sick when I first brought you the Good News ...
Galatians 4:13 - Paul's Fears for the Galatians

... He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. And then he told them, "Go into all the world and preach the ...
Mark 16:15 - The Great Commission

... On the contrary, we speak as those approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please people but God, who tests our hearts. For ...
1 Thessalonians 2:4 - Paul's Ministry

... that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. that comes from the glorious Good News entrusted to me by our blessed God. ...
1 Timothy 1:11 - Warning against False Teaching

... As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, Many of ...
Romans 11:28 - All Israel Shall Be Saved

 

[Alan Gross]

Saying that Baptists who believe in Penal Substitution believe another gospel is saying that the majority of Reformed Baptists today are HERETICS.

That's OK, JonC said on another thread that there is reason enough to believe they are lost. So, it's not as bad as being a heretic.

You are making the mistake of thinking things about the gospel, or even how men enter into this "kingdom", is the gospel itself.

Please. Don't say people enter into the Kingdom of God in salvation by becoming as a little child.

My point is you point to a kinship with past churches

I don't point to kinship. I point to direct succession from the baptism of John.

Of course, I also point to my having a continual line of unbroken chain-link succession from Adam and Eve. You can bet I better believe it by faith, based if nothing else on 'like-begets-like', because I for one sure don't have the verification of an uninterrupted genealogical Pedigree from an Authority in historical research.

But, by there having been a continual line of ancestors intimately related to me back to Adam and Eve is more than easy for me to believe, because I'm here, and the only next best explanation would be a wild rash unsubstantiate-able assumption, like I just spontaneously appeared out of nowhere, but I'm a walking talking human just like they were, fearfully and wonderfully made, thank you very much.

past churches that would view you as a heretic (not because of believers baptism by immersion but because you hold another gospel than they did

What Gospel did they hold, you think?

And what Gospel do you think I hold, as a heretic?

you do not hold other things they found necessary in a "true church").

Try as you might, JonC, to name one.

It is one thing to say "this is the gospel" and cite what Jesus says is the gospel.

When Jesus says what the Gospel is and He says, this is the Gospel, what does Jesus say the Gospel is?

It is another to say "no, what Jesus called the gospel is not the gospel" and then offer ones understanding of the gospel as the gospel itself.

What did Jesus 'call' the Gospel?

The Bible qualifies as God Himself saying what the Gospel is:

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how
that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

You need to stop calling my view a false gospel or another gospel.

Well...

It is accepted in most evangelical Baptist circles. I never said it wasn't. But it is a reformed Roman Catholic view (and relatively new to the Christian faith).

There's the One World Ecumenical Movement daydream for the 'Church' of the Anti-Christ, to meld every other belief system into Roman Catholicism.

Do you have any idea how much money and muscle Satan has expended at that endeavor?

Your understanding of the gospel is false in the sense it is unbiblical and opposes what the Bible teaches of Christ's work. If you insist that your understanding IS the gospel then it is "another gospel".

You might want to turn that around where it can do some good.

You condemn traditional Christian faith in favor of a reformed version of Aquinas' satisfaction substitution (you hold a reformed Catholic faith on this topic).

Christianity is ta-boo unless and until it's said to be Catholic is the belief of billions.

Baptist, in general, has inherited theology from Anabaptist groups (the "Radical Reformation") and from Reformed groups (particularly Lutherans and Presbyterians, with a little Methodist sprinkled in for good measure).

Where do you think Luther and Calvin got their appreciation and extensive concepts of Bible Doctrine? Osmosis? Calvin just sit down and said I think I'll wright up a systematic maze of teachings that inner twine throughout the Bible Supernaturally, from scratch?

How much of each ingredient differs among Baptist sects and has changed over time as theology across Reformed and Baptist lines became more acceptable.

Where has it remained true to the New Testament and not been a part of that great apostasy?

Anabaptists (like Mennonites and Amish sects) are "Baptists". But they reject penal substitution and hold other doctrines essential to their identity.

Somebody somewhere before you rejected the Scapegoat?

Many Reformed Baptists have moved closer to Presbyterian theology in their view of redemptive history.

Called? Apostasy. Some Protestant-Baptist daughter's from the harlot daughters of the Great Whore are moving closer back to Ma-Ma. I will behold.

We have Baptists that are closer to Wesleyan theology.

And you think God took them that direction?

We have Baptist churches that sprinkle infants as a dedication.

And 10s of millions of real Baptists and Baptist-like-faith and order Christians before them who laid down their lives in opposition to such wizardry.

Turning from God is not recommended.

So "Baptist" has become a term with little meaning

It means a lot to Jesus, in regard to the greatest man born among women that was called the Baptist and to all those through history who have heard to salvation by grace in Jesus alone and believers baptism.

'Baptist' just needs it's normal qualifiers, like local church only, Missionary Landmark, Doctrines of Grace, Scriptural Baptism by Authority of church succession, Trail of Blood, no alien immersion, closed communion, contending for the saints once delivered to the saints, King James Christian version of the Bible preferred, "one member, one vote,” spirit-led democracy, soul liberty, separation of church and State, Divine Order of the Sexes, women silent in the convened assembly, Amillennialism eschatological, narrow Baptist, like I am,
whose purpose as a member is the carrying out of the Great Commission of Matthew 28:16-20?

basically believers baptism.

And salvation by Grace through the actual blood Atonement of Jesus Christ and not another.

Thus the term - Heinz 57 Variety of Baptists

Just needs a little more description, as above, to narrow one down on what they actually believe.

Same with Anabaptists. Anabaptist theology is Baptist, but includes a separation of Church (as a congregation) and State that most Baptists don't hold.

You can try to quote me a 'Baptist' that believes in a union between church and State. If there is one, I'll suggest they spell their name with a little 'b'.

Anabaptist also includes a doctrine of nonresistance

What Baptist-like believers can be shown to have persecuted others?

But since the term "Anabaptist" was a derogatory term used by Catholic and the Reformed to refer to believers baptism, the term "Anabaptist Theology" has been misused to include those of the Münster rebellion and the
Batenburgers.

I know Ana-Baptists were painted as if they were associated with the upheaval there and it was used at that time for a convenient way to get shed of a bunch of them, but I don't know of any evidence they were involved other than by interested parties mentioned, in their efforts toward their eradication.

I don't think that "Baptist" needs to be a more narrow term. We typically add to it (Reformed Baptist, Free-Will Baptist, SBC, Fundamental Baptist, Independent Baptist, Missionary Baptist, Primitive Baptist).

O.K.

I am a Baptist.

 

[Alan Gross]

local church only, Missionary Landmark, Doctrines of Grace, Scriptural Baptism by Authority of church succession, Trail of Blood, no alien immersion, closed communion, contending for the saints once delivered to the saints, King James Christian version of the Bible preferred, "one member, one vote,” spirit-led democracy, soul liberty, separation of church and State, Divine Order of the Sexes, women silent in the convened assembly, Amillennialism eschatological, narrow Baptist, like I am,
whose purpose as a member is the carrying out of the Great Commission of Matthew 28:16-20?

The Lordship of Jesus, the six literal days of Creation, the Priesthood of the Believer, Cessastionism, Hell is Eternal suffering of the lost in fire, ahhh Hellfire and Brimstone.

I guess that would cover it. I'm a Hellfire and Brimstone Baptist preacher.

Sorry, I would have to tell anyone that, because I should have already made them to have been able to tell.

 

[JonC]

If I put "the kingdom of God has come" inserted where "Gospel" is in this quick search of verses, it digs into the Bible deeper and comes up dryer that a first year Greek student.

Only if one is ignorant of Scripture as a whole.

The gospel is that the awaited kingdom has come. That is what Jesus said. The "good news" was that what was foreshadowed has appeared, that the Promise is fulfilled.

What you are calling the gospel are things about the gospel, what the gospel does, how one enters this Rest, etc.

 

[JonC]

That's OK, JonC said on another thread that there is reason enough to believe they are lost.

Now, now. Lying is a sin.

What I have said is that I was saved even before I became a Calvinist.