Featured The Book of Ephesians

Mr. KenH knows or should know that I believe God has chosen us (existing believers) corporately before the subjugation of humanity, Ephesians 1:4
Mr. KenH knows or should know that I believe salvation is by God alone, and it does not depend on those who will or do stuff to be saved, Romans 9:16
Mr. KenH has embraced a man-made theology built on sinking sand, such as the Bible truth we are saved through faith is denied, and we are saved, then given faith is the rewrite.

 

An introduction to the Book of Ephesians?
1) Does the introduction, Ephesians 1:1-14, say Jesus has saved His people as the sermon claims? Nope

Ephesians 1:1 NASB
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
____________
Footnote: Some early manuscripts do not contain "at Ephesus"​

So even if the letter was written to existing "saints" the purpose of the Apostles chosen by Christ is to make new saints, people who will become saved. So the actual doctrine is Jesus has saved and is saving His people.

2) Is belief the result of having righteousness imputed to us? Nope

Eph 1:13 NASB
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,​

Here the opposite truth is taught, after hearing and believing the gospel of your salvation, then the believers were "sealed in Him." Not the other way around.

3) Does God "know" the sins of the saints? Nope God has forgiven our sins and promised to remember them no more forever. Hebrews 9:12

4) Is the introduction to Ephesians "gibberish" to the lost? Nope Certainly gibberish to those of the "soil number 1" hardened hearts, and those who "know" another doctrine of god. But a "few" will find the narrow path that leads to life, and scripture can lead them there. See Galatians 3:24

5 Has Jesus "satisfied" God for the sins of the whole world? Nope Jesus has provided the means of satisfaction of God for the sins of the whole world, all of humanity.

6) Is the "world" (1 John 2:2) referring to the elect? Nope. The audience is believers and non-believers, as "world" refers to the inhabitants of the whole world, all mankind.

 

Did anyone say salvation is not based on the solid rock? Nope. Pay no attention to the endless strawmen hurled at truth.

 

You wrote: So since we are saved by grace through faith, our faith must exist before we are saved. It is inescapable.

What is inescapable is verse 5 "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—"

Van, do you believe a dead in trespasses person can generate faith before God changes their heart by grace alone?
You would have to say yes, if your statement "our faith must exist before we are saved" were to be true. But if it were true, then there is no need for Jesus to make a person alive since the dead person already did the believing anyway.

 

Of course, I believe a spiritually dead person, separated because they are sinners, can respond in faith to God's revelation.
The reason to be made alive together with Christ is salvation from the wrath of God.

Here is what I wrote:

Here we seem to have a denial of what it means to achieve something through something else. Say enter a room through a door.
The door must exist before we entered. Full Stop

Say enter a town through a tunnel. The tunnel must exist before we entered the town.

So since we are saved by grace through faith, our faith must exist before we are saved. It is inescapable.

Next John 17:20-21 does not say Jesus knew the specific individuals that would come to believe. Nor would I need to know who will die today, to say we pray that those who will die today need to have been saved.

Who is Jesus talking about in John 17:22-24? His disciples! To claim He is talking about future believers is agenda driven nonsense.

Ephesians 2:8-9 does not say faith is a gift, the grammar precludes that mistranslation, the gift is salvation.

Yes, the Bible says we are chosen through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ​

It is not what I believe, but what scripture teaches that should guide us. You seem to have not addressed the fact that since we are saved through faith, even chosen for salvation through faith, we as spiritually dead people came to put our faith in Christ.

No need to change the subject to my beliefs!

 

Your analogies make no sense and have no connection to Ephesians 2.

You believe the spiritually dead sinner can, by their own faith, enter into the kingdom, even while they are still dead.
But the text tells us the opposite. It says that God, even while they are still dead, makes them alive and saves them by grace. It is only after Paul tells us this very clear statement that Paul adds faith as a component that comes after grace and causes the newly alive person to believe that they have been changed from death to life. That is what the text says. But, you are turning the text around backwards and saying that a spiritually dead man doesn't have God act on their behalf until that person first instigates their own act of faith toward God, while they are still dead.

It is clear the text does not support you.

 

1) "Your analogies make no sense?" Here I see no understanding of what "through faith" means. Just a "taint so>"
2) "No connection to Ephesians 2."

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
​

3) It is not what I believe, it is what scripture says. You did not address saved through faith.
4) Scripture has many examples of "spiritually dead" people seeking God. You have not addressed the evidence.
5) No one said we were spiritually alive when God made us alive. Duh
6) To be saved through faith requires faith comes before the grace of salvation, but not the grace of revelation.
7) No verse says revelation causes a person to believe, that is a fiction.
8) I am not turning the text around, through faith is right there for all to see.
9) Of course God's revelation is God acting on behalf of the sinner, not to mention Christ dying as a ransom for all.
10) Did I say the person "first instigates their own act of faith?" Nope, why misrepresent my view?

To be saved through faith requires 100% of the time, faith exists before salvation is accomplished. Full Stop

 

1) We see no useful analogies by you.
2) We see you avoiding what God tells you in the previous verses that lead up to verse 8 in Ephesians 2.
3) I have addressed saved by grace (you neglected the phrase "by grace." The phrase "through faith" comes after by grace, not before it. You teaching is backwards. You say "saved by faith which causes God to extend grace." So, yes, I addressed it earlier and I actually explained it to you.
4) Scripture never once addresses spiritually dead seeking God. You are forcing your opinion upon the text.
What scripture says is that no one seems God. And that we were once dead in our trespasses and sins.
You are looking at stories in the Bible and then attempting to rewrite what God has explicitly stated by saying God must have been mistaken.
5) Indeed, the text says we were dead and God made us alive. It never says dead men have faith.
6) Here you again neglect the text. The text says we are saved by grace, through faith. Thus God acts first and we respond to what God has done. It's quite clear in how Paul wrote the text.
7) You are correct. No verse says that. I never said there was a verse that said such a thing.
8) You have neglected "by grace" and actual ignored it as the clause that comes before faith.
9) We agree
10) The implication of your statements says that exactly. You ignore saved by grace and emphasize faith without gracious salvation first being proffered.

Van, you have it backwards. Gracious salvation comes before faith. The text tells you this.

 

1) Again the fact through faith requires that faith precedes what is accomplished through faith.
2) Manufacturing false charges is all false teachers can post, as scripture is not on their side.

Who denies we walked as children of wrath before being chosen for salvation individually?
Who made us alive, ourselves or God?
Who denies God put us spiritually into Christ based on crediting our faith as righteousness? ​

 

1) It does not require faith to come before salvation by grace. There is a reason Paul introduced saved by grace before he says through faith. This is because, even while we were still dead, Christ made us alive. That's what Paul tells us in the text. That gracious salvation, which God gives us is believed upon by faith. It is an effect of God's salvation. That is the text, no matter how desperately you want to reverse it.
2) What false charges have been manufactured? The text shows you are wrong. Is there anything to manufacturer?

 

Why does Paul, a saved man, (see Acts 9) say by grace are "ye" saved through faith, and not by grace are "we" saved through faith?

Why did Paul use phraseology in verse 5 like so?

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Why does Paul add this parenthetical phrase at the end of his statement as though he is inferring that #1, he is not saved, which is not possible knowing of his salvation, or #2 that he was not saved by grace like the Ephesians?

Being "quickened" and being saved in Verse 5 seems to be synonyms.
How many does it take to be "together." If it takes more than one, who else is he speaking of? Since both the "we" and "ye" had the same common problem, being dead in trespasses and sins, and both were quickened in Christ, why make the distinction that it is "ye" who are saved, or quickened, by grace?

Do you have any answers for me?

 

I am sorry Sir, but your denial of the obvious does not move the ball. For example, we entered the room through the door has the door after the room, but the sequence is obvious. You repeat the claim that being dead means unable to seek but you do not address the dozen or so verses that have the spiritually "dead" seeking God and His promises. Charging me with your refusal to abide by scripture seems disingenuous.

Next we get the denial that you manufactured false charges:
1) "You believe the spiritually dead sinner can, by their own faith, enter into the kingdom," This is a false charge
2) "...that a spiritually dead man doesn't have God act on their behalf until that person first instigates their own act of faith..."
This is another false charge as no one seeks God before God reveals Himself and His promises.

 

Yea, but definitely not for dispies, here goes anyway.

Verse 5 is 'corporate', verse 8 is 'individual'.

5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),

Foretold of here (among many other places):

1 The hand of Jehovah was upon me, and he brought me out in the Spirit of Jehovah, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones.
2 And he caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord Jehovah, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy over these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of Jehovah.
5 Thus saith the Lord Jehovah unto these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live.
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am Jehovah.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and, behold, an earthquake; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. Ezek 37

24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them. Ezek 36

It is 'the regeneration':

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Mt 19
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. Ezek 36

...the 'building again' of the house of David:

14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old. Acts 15

18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Mt 16

...the 'restoring of the kingdom to Israel', the Israel of God:

6 They therefore, when they were come together, asked him, saying, Lord, dost thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? Acts 1

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

 

Sir, how does a dead person go through the door in your analogy?
Also, none of my charges are false. I have broken down exactly what you have said. If anything, you are stating one thing and then denying it while still stating it. It's like listening to a person with dual personalities contradicting themselves.

So, I am not in any denial, but you certainly are in denial as you speak one thing and then turn around and deny what you said.

Sir, I have no delusions of persuading you. Thank you for the conversation, but if we have nothing else new to say, let's shake hands and call it a day.

 

The very fact that we cannot lose our salvation is because salvation is totally the work of God

 

WOW! Did you get all of that from those two or three verses I quoted? Are you making the point that those verses and that phraseology is making you an Israelite? Did you not read the text of Eph 2 where Paul identified the "ye" as gentiles. Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

You are not developing your theology from the words you read. These were, before the door of faith was opened to them in Acts 10 in 40 AD, gentiles in the flesh. They are now gentiles in the body of Christ through the new birth, but they are gentiles nonetheless. And they are in the same body and equal with the Jews who have believed. The context and the words will not permit any other conclusion. I am losing confidence in your ability to sensibly process information.

If you were an Israelite, like you are claiming, you would be a son of Jacob. You are not that. Galatians 3 says we are the spiritual children of Abraham, who in typology is a picture of God the Father. So, we Christians, Jew or gentile, are children of God by birth through believing God. The Spirit of God is the typical projection we get from Jacob, who built the house.

 

Lol, I knew it was a waste of time.

But yes, I am an Israelite per se. Romans 2:29; Philippians 3:3

 

It is no laughing matter, but at least you left off from trying to explain how all those verses you quoted had anything to do with Paul making the distinction between Jews and gentiles in Ephesians in God’s purpose of building the church of Jesus Christ by including the believers from both classes in this same body.

And BTW, who told you that Romans 2:29 and Philippians 3:3 teaches that God has made you an Israelite?