The Book of Ephesians

[Revmitchell]

Yes, God by His free sovereign grace grants His elect the gifts of faith and repentance from dead works.

Well except faith is not a gift it is inherent in all of us. Salvation is a gift which is made clear in Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 6:23

 

[KenH]

Well except faith is not a gift it is inherent in all of us.

Totally false.

 

[Revmitchell]

Totally false.

Oh well! You have made a compelling argument. I am now converted. Why do you post this stuff if you are unable to defend it?

The subject of Ephesians 2:8-9 is not faith it is salvation. Even John Calvin would disagree with you:

“And here we must advert to a very common error in the interpretation of this passage. Many persons restrict the word gift to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is, not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God.” John Calvin

There are three words in v.8 connected to salvation, grace, saved, faith. For some reason calves eiseget faith as the subject when salvation as a whole is the real subject. Trying to pull out faith and ignore the others is awkward and does not fit the gender relationship in the original language.

 

[kyredneck]

Paul making the distinction between Jews and gentiles

There’s ‘literally’ NO distinction made between the two, the two have now been made one:

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction...Acts 11:12

and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; Ro 3:22

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 9:12

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12

where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

 

[kyredneck]

And BTW, who told you that Romans 2:29 and Philippians 3:3 teaches that God has made you an Israelite?

You better hope that God has made YOU an Israelite.

6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: Ro 9

 

[kyredneck]

It is no laughing matter

I think it's hilarious at how predictable 'you people' are.

 

[KenH]

Even John Calvin would disagree with you

My concern is with trying to be aligned with God's Word, not some mere man.

 

[KenH]

Well except faith is not a gift it is inherent in all of us.

Totally false.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Revmitchell]

There’s ‘literally’ NO distinction made between the two, the two have now been made one:

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction...Acts 11:12

and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; Ro 3:22

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 9:12

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12

where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—

Act 4:25 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit, “‘Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain?

Act 4:27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,

Act 9:15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel.

Act 10:45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.

Act 11:1 Now the apostles and the brothers who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.

Act 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Act 13:46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

Act 13:47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, “‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Act 14:2 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.

Act 14:5 When an attempt was made by both Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to mistreat them and to stone them,

Act 14:27 And when they arrived and gathered the church together, they declared all that God had done with them, and how he had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles.

Act 15:3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.

Act 15:7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

Act 15:12 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.

Act 15:14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name.

Rom 1:13 I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I have often intended to come to you (but thus far have been prevented), in order that I may reap some harvest among you as well as among the rest of the Gentiles.

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

Rom 2:24 For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Rom 9:30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;

Rom 11:11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

Rom 11:12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

Rom 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Rom 15:9 and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written, “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name.”

Rom 15:10 And again it is said, “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.”

 

[Revmitchell]

My concern is with trying to be aligned with God's Word, not some mere man.

Good grief you missed the point. I was not trying to align you with anyone I was making the point that even someone else who is considered an authority on calvinism denies what you are saying. Can you not defend your own position?

 

[Revmitchell]

Totally false.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Sigh, Paul was talking to believers who were acting like lost people. He goes on in 3:1to say:

1Co 3:1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.

Clearly that which is natural is a reference to the mindset that ignores godly wisdom of which he emphasizes in the rest of chapter 2. When you proof text out of context you get eisegesis.

 

[KenH]

Good grief you missed the point. I was not trying to align you with anyone I was making the point that even someone else who is considered an authority on calvinism denies what you are saying.

I am not a Calvinist. That has been hashed out on this board months ago that I am not aligned with Calvinism. A lot of the reason for that is it seems that most people think of Calvinists as being infralapsarians. I am a supralapsarian. Also, Calvinism tends to be associated with the Reformed Church or some Presbyterian churches, I am not certainly not associated with those churches. I am neither Reformed nor a Calvinist, as has, as previously noted, been already thoroughly hashed out on this board.

Can you not defend your own position?

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Revmitchell]

I am not a Calvinist. That has been hashed out on this board months ago that I am not aligned with Calvinism. A lot of the reason for that is it seems that most people think of Calvinists as being infralapsarians. I am a supralapsarian. Also, Calvinism tends to be associated with the Reformed Church or some Presbyterian churches, I am not certainly not associated with those churches. I am neither Reformed nor a Calvinist, as has, as previously noted, been already thoroughly hashed out on this board.

I don't care. Your theology is calvinistic. I have yet to see any difference. Be what you want.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

apparently still cannot defend your position just throw inappropriate scripture around with no explanation. It is either out of ignorance or arrogance not sure which.

 

[kyredneck]

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—

2 Ye know that when ye were Gentiles ye were led away unto those dumb idols, howsoever ye might led. 1 Cor 12

 

[kyredneck]

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—

Don't stop at the 11th verse:

Eph 2
12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;
16 and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

 

[kyredneck]

Well except faith is not a gift it is inherent in all of us.

Totally false.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

AGREE!

2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 2 Thess 3

 

[taisto]

Well except faith is not a gift it is inherent in all of us. Salvation is a gift which is made clear in Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 6:23

Is a fruit, that comes from the Spirit, not a gift of God?

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
- Galatians 5:22-23

Or does God give all humanity the fruit of the Spirit?

 

[KenH]

Your theology is calvinistic.

If you could read the previous discussions on this board where my beliefs have been the subject of debate, you would see that I do not fit into "Calvinism" as it is used on this board.

 

[KenH]

The subject of Ephesians 2:8-9 is not faith it is salvation. Even John Calvin would disagree with you:

“And here we must advert to a very common error in the interpretation of this passage. Many persons restrict the word gift to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is, not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God.” John Calvin

Well, since I have not read Calvin's writings myself, I did some research by others and found this:

“Now we understand that we are made partakers of all his blessings by means of faith; for this it is which brings us into communication with Christ, in order that he may dwell in us, that we may be ingrafted into him as our root, that we may be members of his body, that we may live in him, and he in us, and possess him, with all his benefits. And that it may not be thought strange that we attribute such virtue to faith, we do not take it for a fleeting opinion, but for a certainty which we have of the promises of God, in which all these blessings are contained, and by which we embrace our Lord Jesus Christ as the surety of all our salvation, and apply to our own use what he has received of God his Father to impart unto us. This faith we likewise know that we cannot have if it be not given us from above, and as Scripture declares, (Ephesians 2:9; 1:18) till the Holy Spirit enlightens us to comprehend what is beyond all human sense, and seals in our hearts what we ought to believe” [John Calvin, Selected Works of Calvin Volume 2 (The Comprehensive John Calvin Collection, Ages Digital Library, 1998), 138].

- C. Gordon Olson on John Calvin and the Gift of Faith - Alpha and Omega Ministries (aomin.org)

(emphasis mine)

I do not know the timing as to when Calvin wrote what you quoted or what James Swan quoted.

 

[Revmitchell]

Is a fruit, that comes from the Spirit, not a gift of God?

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
- Galatians 5:22-23

Or does God give all humanity the fruit of the Spirit?

Faithfulness and the faith spoken of in Ephesians 2 are not the same thing. The faithfulness in Galatians is the enduring actions of a believer. Not sure why that needs explaining.