The Tribulation Period

[Revmitchell]

Having Reasonable discussions on this issue


It is an interpretive error to try and pull out of the tribulation period minor sections, divorced from the greater context, in order to create a gotchya argument based on one’s favorite proof text. Further, just because one might disagree with an argument and in their mind does not provide proof to make them wrong, does not mean there is no evidence for the position in which they disagree with. Sophomoric attempts to create such an atmosphere will be ignored and in doing so is not an inability to defend a position. In fact, making such an argument is akin to leveling a false accusation and or being a false witness. We need to have reasonable conversations not gotchya debates.

 

[Revmitchell]

The Nature of the Tribulation



There are those who refuse to distinguish the differences between the tribulations of this time during the church age from the unprecedented tribulation we will see and are clearly described in the book of Revelation beginning in Revelation 6. When we look at scripture we can clearly see that there will be a time of trouble or tribulation that will stand out from the everyday troubles we see in the world now.


Dan 12:1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.



Joe 2:1 Blow a trumpet in Zion; sound an alarm on my holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming; it is near,

Joe 2:2 a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness! Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains a great and powerful people; their like has never been before, nor will be again after them through the years of all generations.



Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, near and hastening fast; the sound of the day of the LORD is bitter; the mighty man cries aloud there.

Zep 1:15 A day of wrath is that day, a day of distress and anguish, a day of ruin and devastation, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Zep 1:16 a day of trumpet blast and battle cry against the fortified cities and against the lofty battlements.



Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.



Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,

Rev 6:16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,

Rev 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”



This great tribulation period is distinct from the daily troubles we see now. The severity during this time is unmatched. Its very nature has a special purpose that should not be ignored. That nature is the wrath of God. The source of tribulation will come directly from God in contrast to the daily troubles of our day right now. This tribulation cannot be reasonably compared to what is going on today. We are not in any way under the wrath of God at this point and the troubles and suffering in the world will be increased by an unknown number.

 

[Revmitchell]

The purpose of the tribulation period



Pentecost suggests“Its primary purpose is to prepare the Nation of Israel for her Messiah”[1] Stanton further makes this point when he says:



“The tribulation is primarily Jewish. This fact is borne out by the OT scriptures (Deuteronomy 4:30; Jeremiah 30:7; Ezekiel 20:37; Daniel 12:1; Zechariah 13:8-9) and by the book of Revelation itself (Revelation 7:4-8; 12:1-2; 17) It concerns “Daniel’s people,” the coming of the “false Messiah,” the preaching of the “gospel of the Kingdom,” flight on the “Sabbath,” the temple and the “holy places,” the land of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, the “tribes of the children of Israel,” the “son of Moses,” “signs” in the heavens, the “covenant” with the beast, the “sanctuary”,” the “sacrifice and the oblation,” of the temple ritual, - these all speak of Israel and prove that the tribulation is largely a time when God deals with His ancient people prior to their entrance into the promised Kingdom. The many OT prophecies yet to be fulfilled for Israel further indicate a future time when God will deal with this nation (Deut. 30:1-6; Jer. 30:8-10)”[2]



There is another purpose in this unprecedented time which is to inflict judgment on those who are hostile to God and unbelieving:

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.



Isa 26:21 For behold, the LORD is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.



Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,

Rev 6:16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,

Rev 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Rev 16:9 They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory.



This dealing with sin and godlessness in the world sets up the coming Millennium.


[1] J. Dwight Pentecost, “Things to Come” p. 237

[2] Gerald Stanton, “Kept from the Hour”,” pp.30-31

 

[Revmitchell]

The Time of the Tribulation



an 9:24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

Dan 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”



Walvoord said “properly interpreted, the prophecy of Daniel furnishes an excellent example of the principle that prophecy is subject to literal interpretation. Practically all expositors, however opposed to prophecy, per se, agree that at least part of the seventy weeks of Daniel is to be interpreted literally…if the first sixty-nine weeks of Daniel were subject to literal fulfillment, it is a powerful argument that the final seventieth week will have a similar fulfillment.”[1]



Further, this prophecy understood literally supports the view that the church is a mystery not seen in the OT. Walvoord said, “The seventy weeks of Daniel properly interpreted, demonstrate the distinct place of the Christian church and Israel in the purposes of God. The seventy weeks of Daniel are totally in reference to Israel and her relation to the Gentile powers and the rejection of Israel’s Messiah. The peculiar purpose of God in calling out a people from every nation to form the church and the program of this present age are nowhere in view in this prophecy.”[2]





While what I have posted here is not exhaustive it sets a reasonable amount of information on the tribulation period and why the church is removed from it.


[1] John F. Walvoord, Is Daniel’s Seventieth Week Future” Bibliotheca Sacra, 101:30 January 1944

[2] Walvoord, Ibid.

 

[Van]

A whole lot of valid points are made in these first three posts.

1) The "Great Tribulation" is a future period described as occurring at the end of the age of grace.

2) Today, we (siblings of Christ) suffer tribulation, sometimes even physical death.

3) Part of the Great Tribulation will not be experienced by those who have born anew.

4) Repentance gives glory to God.

5) The Millennial Kingdom on earth will occur after the Great Tribulation.

And some of the points are questionable:

1) The footnote link to how the Dwight Pentecost points to the Great Tribulation being primarily for the Nation of Israel didn't work, and I doubt the validity.

2) The Church is foreshadowed in the OT. This is the Progressive Dispensationalist view, i.e. the Church is part of "All Israel." Thus what foreshadows the Messiah, foreshadows the Church.

 

[taisto]

The OP attempts to separate the children of the inheritance from Israel, saying the "tribulation is primarily Jewish." Here I will disagree. The tribulation is distinctly addressing God's wrath being brought upon the children of Babylon. This wrath falls precisely because the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet have been going about the earth, killing the children of God.

Throughout the Bible we see this pattern:
Satan sets about to kill the line of the promise. Great distress falls upon God's children. God intervenes and utterly crushed the children of the beast and the lovers of Babylon. We see this cycle over and over again. When John received the Revelation he was shown the cycle and told that this cycle would continue as the spirit of antichrist continues to seek the destruction of the children of God. This will continue until the last Christian comes to saving faith, ensuring that not one person perishes. Then the King of Kings returns and utterly destroys the enemies of His servants. The entire Bible points at this. All the verses shared by the OP point at this. John continually points at this.

It seems, then, that the difference between the OP and myself is in how we understand the tribulation and in who it is that makes up the line of the promised inheritance.

My distinction is this: There is the line of the promise, who have all received the mark of God upon them, and there is the line of the beast, who have all received the mark of the beast upon them. That's it. There is no other groups. These groups exist today, at this present hour, and we are those who call out to the world to those who will be saved before the end comes.

 

[Revmitchell]

1) The footnote link to how the Dwight Pentecost points to the Great Tribulation being primarily for the Nation of Israel didn't work, and I doubt the validity.

It is not intended as a link. It is simply numbering the footnote marking the source of where I received that quote. The number showing as a hyperlink is beyond me as to why.

 

[37818]

The Tribulation is over before the day of wrath.

Matthew 24:29, ". . . Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: . . ."

Revelation 6:12-17, ". . . the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? . . . ."

 

[kyredneck]

The Tribulation Period

Done already, ancient history:

21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

22For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gahered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt 23

 

[David Kent]

Done already, ancent history:

21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

22For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gahered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt 23

There's none so blind.

 

[David Kent]

The little horn Daniel 7, Antichrist, what is his aim?

 

[David Kent]

Walvoord said “properly interpreted, the prophecy of Daniel furnishes an excellent example of the principle that prophecy is subject to literal interpretation. Practically all expositors, however opposed to prophecy, per se, agree that at least part of the seventy weeks of Daniel is to be interpreted literally…if the first sixty-nine weeks of Daniel were subject to literal fulfillment, it is a powerful argument that the final seventieth week will have a similar fulfillment.”[1]

The period of sevent seeks was symbolic, the fulfillment was literal. It was literally fulfilled in the time that my Lord was on earth. He minerstered to the Jews for one week, in the midst of the week, the seventieth week, he was cut off. The ministry to the Jews was continued by the apostles until the conversion of Cornelius and his household.

Mat 26:28
For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Rom 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

 

[Dave G]

Done already, ancient history:

Look at this carefully:

" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." ( Matthew 24:29-31 ).

See also this:

" But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." ( Mark 13:24-27 ).

Immediately after the tribulation, God shall send His angels to gather His elect...from everywhere they currently are. To bring in 1 Thessalonians 4, which describes His second coming, Jesus Christ shall descend from Heaven with a shout, and with the voice of the Archangel and the trumpet of God.

Has any of that happened yet?
Not that I'm aware of.

 

[Dave G]

@kyredneck
But if what you are saying is true, then all of God's people are with Him, bodily, right now:

" For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise * first:.
17 then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them * in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 ).
* ( be resurrected )

Note that His second coming is bodily, just as His first one was:

" And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." ( Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11 ).

Therefore, since this bodily second coming of the Lord Jesus is immediately after the tribulation, according to God's very words in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, and since God's people are not bodily with Him right now, then it hasn't happened yet, has it?

For some reason I'm seeing it quite the opposite, especially when I examine His words very carefully.

 

[Dave G]

He minerstered to the Jews for one week, in the midst of the week, the seventieth week, he was cut off.

" And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." ( Daniel 9:26 )

Does this not say that Messiah will be ( and has already been ) "cut off" ( killed ) after 62 weeks, and not in the middle of the 70th?

I also see this right before it:

" Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem * unto the Messiah the Prince ** [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. *** " ( Daniel 9:25 )

* Nehemiah 2.
** Matthew 27, Mark 15, Luke 23, John 19.
*** Nehemiah 7.

So, from the going forth of the commandment ( from Artaxerxes ) to rebuild Jerusalem ( in Nehemiah 2 ) to Messiah the Prince ( Jesus Christ's crucifixion, or being "cut off" in Daniel 9:26 ) is 69 weeks ( 7 "weeks" plus 62 = 69 "weeks" or roughly 483 years )...
And from the finishing of Jerusalem to Christ's crucifixion is 62 "weeks", which means it took 7 "weeks" ( roughly 49 years ) to rebuild Jerusalem.

Please read it again, David, perhaps you're missing the math...
I'm coming up with something entirely different when I read it.

 

[David Kent]

" And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." ( Daniel 9:26 )

Does this not say that Messiah will be ( and has already been ) "cut off" ( killed ) after 62 weeks, and not in the middle of the 70th?

I also see this right before it:

" Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem * unto the Messiah the Prince ** [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. *** " ( Daniel 9:25 )

* Nehemiah 2.
** Matthew 27, Mark 15, Luke 23, John 19.
*** Nehemiah 7.

So, from the going forth of the commandment ( from Artaxerxes ) to rebuild Jerusalem ( in Nehemiah 2 ) to Messiah the Prince ( Jesus Christ's crucifixion, or being "cut off" in Daniel 9:26 ) is 69 weeks ( 7 "weeks" plus 62 = 69 "weeks" or roughly 483 years )...
And from the finishing of Jerusalem to Christ's crucifixion is 62 "weeks", which means it took 7 "weeks" ( roughly 49 years ) to rebuild Jerusalem.

Please read it again, David, perhaps you're missing the math...
I'm coming up with something entirely different when I read it.

After 62 weeks. What comes after 62 weeks.

I agree 49 years for it all to be completed temple, city, people set free, from the declaration of Cyrus to the thirty second year of Artaxerxes who was the same person as Darius.

Timeline From 1st year of Cyrus

Cyrus 9 years
Cambeses 6 years
Pseudo Smerdis <1year
Darius/Artaxerxes 32 years total about 48 years

 

[Dave G]

After 62 weeks. What comes after 62 weeks.

Take another look at Daniel 9:24-26.

" 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. "

Here's what I see:
Seventy "weeks" are determined upon Daniel's people and upon the holy city ( Jerusalem ).
It's done to..

1) finish the transgression
2) make an end of sins
3) make reconciliation for iniquity
4) bring in everlasting righteousness
5) seal up the vision and prophecy
6) anoint the most Holy.

 

[Dave G]

" 25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

Next is laid out the timeline:

From the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem ( in Ezra 1 and Nehemiah 2 ) to Christ is 7 + 62 = 69 weeks.
In that time ( 69 weeks ) both Jerusalem will be rebuilt, plus Christ will come.

 

[Dave G]

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. "

Finally, more detail is given in the above:

After 62 weeks shall Christ be "cut off" ( crucified ).

So, given everything that the passage states, I see that the total time from start to finish ( beginning of rebuilding Jerusalem to end of Christ's earthly life ) is 69 weeks
It includes both Jerusalem being rebuilt in Ezra and Nehemiah's time, plus Christ coming and being crucified...do you follow?

Therefore, 69 "weeks" x 7 years = 483 years from the going forth of the commandment to build Jerusalem to Christ's crucifixion.
62 x 7 years ( 1 "week" = 7 years ) must equal 434 years from the end of the rebuilding of Jerusalem to Christ being "cut off" ( crucified ).

Simple subtraction:

483 years - 434 years = 49 years ( 7 "weeks" ), which is roughly how long it must have taken to rebuild Jerusalem.

With all that said ( if my math checks out, and I believe it does ),
The Lord Jesus cannot have been "cut off" during the 70th "week", because the Scripture says He will be "cut off" at the end of 69 "weeks", not in the middle of the 70th.

That's one "week" left unaccounted for.

 

[Alan Gross]

New threads:

The contents of: The Seventy Weeks and Great Tribulation by Phillip Mauro,

to peruse and an example from it;

The Signs in the Sun, Moon and Stars. One of the most difficult Bible passages.

And maybe one of the most enlightening commentaries on a passage that you will see.

If you can get this, you can get a lot more out of Bible prophecy.

Otherwise, I think you're stuck IMHO.