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Featured Penal Substitution Atonement Theory - Question

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by kyredneck, Oct 14, 2023.

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  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Does the Biblical fact that 'the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan', was behind the crucifixion of Christ somehow contradict Penal Substitution Theory?

    I grew up in the SB Church, was taught that Christ died in my place as ordained by God, AND that Satan was the instigator of His death.
     
    #1 kyredneck, Oct 14, 2023
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  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes, it does. But Penal Substitution Theory rationalizes the issue away (it was really God using Satan).

    Biblically Christ suffered and died under the power of Satan by the preordained plan of God.
     
    #2 JonC, Oct 14, 2023
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  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    In the simplest of terms, how?

    I agree totally with that. I've concluded years ago that God plays Satan and the spirits like a banjo string. Are you agreeing with that or stating that's what PST espouses?

    I agree totally with that.
     
    #3 kyredneck, Oct 14, 2023
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement holds that God is the instigator of Christ's suffering and death. Satan may be a tool, who in turn used wicked men as tools, but God is the instigator. God punished Jesus (or our sins on Jesus).

    Biblically, Satan is the instigator but this is God's will. Christ died under the powers of Satan (the powers of the world) that held all mankind in bondage.
     
    #4 JonC, Oct 14, 2023
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    How does this differ from the animal sacrifices under the Mosaic economy? Didn't God 'instigate' or implement those sacrifices as a type of Christ as substitute?

    Satan didn't use just 'any ol wicked men'. Just as foretold it was his children the seed of the serpent that murdered Christ.

    Agree.
     
    #5 kyredneck, Oct 14, 2023
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  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    In the Bible the sacrifice system was primarily focused on the blood shed for the purpose of cleansing or purification. The blood is sprinkled on the altar. The animal is not killed on the altar.

    Who sacrificed the animal? It points to the Cross.

    Penal Substitution Theory focuses on the killing of the animal as a type of substitute for the people.
     
    #6 JonC, Oct 14, 2023
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  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    John 10:17-18, ". . . Therefore doth my Father love Me, because I lay down My soul, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. . . ."
     
    #7 37818, Oct 14, 2023
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  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    K. So? What's your point? Has something been stated on this thread that disputes that?
     
    #8 kyredneck, Oct 14, 2023
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  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    These words of Christ contradicts the premise of the thread, that it is “biblical fact” that Satan was behind the crucifixion.

    Also, Peter’s sermon at Pentecost says Jesus died and was crucified at the hands of wicked men and also the “house of Israel”. No mention of Satan.

    So, the answer was s “no”, because the premise is not biblical.

    peace to you
     
    #9 canadyjd, Oct 15, 2023
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  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    If it were a fact, I don't see that it would contradict the doctrine of Penal Substitution.
     
    #10 Martin Marprelate, Oct 15, 2023
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 2:5-8, ". . . That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. . . ."
     
    #11 37818, Oct 15, 2023
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  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Was Satan "behind" the crucifixion of Christ?

    First we must define "behind." Did Satan, humanity's advisory, play a part, by deceiving Eve and facilitating Adam's volitional sin? Yes.

    Did God's predetermined plan to put Christ to death, Acts 2:38, originate before Satan tricked Eve? Yes

    When was Christ known as the Lamb of God? Was it before creation or before the Fall? Yes

    So Satan was "behind" the crucifixion only because God was behind Satan.

    Next we need to define "instigator." The Greek word "Loimos" (G3061) is translated as "instigator" in at least on version of Acts 24:5, but usually "pest, plague, or troublemaker" are the translation choices. No doubt Satan caused "trouble" for Adam and Eve!!

    Did Christ die in our place as ordained (predestined) by God? Nope. Christ died for the whole world, all of fallen humanity, to provide the means of reconciliation for all humanity. But wait, there is more, Christ has provided the actual reconciliation, salvation, for each and every individual God has put into Christ's spiritual body.

    The fly in the buttermilk is the well hidden agenda of teaching "Limited Atonement" (Christ did not die for all humanity) stuffed into the fabric of PSA.

    Christ's substitutionary sacrifice provided our means of reconciliation (Salvation) and provided our reconciliation (Salvation) when God transferred us out of the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son.
     
    #12 Van, Oct 15, 2023
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, they don't.

    Nobody denies that Christ lay down His life willingly.

    I think you missed the point. It is not that Satan somehow defeated Christ.

    It is that Christ willingly suffered and died at the hands of Satan (the "evil", "wicked", "evil doers" which are under the powers of Satan).

    The verses provided in no way contradict the OP.
     
    #13 JonC, Oct 15, 2023
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  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    This is biblical: And Jehovah God said unto the serpent....thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3:14-15

    4 And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child. Rev 12

    'He was a murderer from the beginning' [John 8:44] when his seed Cain [1 John 3:12] killed Abel in order to prevent the One coming to crush his head as he also did down through the millennia. The serpent finally succeeded at the cross, again through his 'seed', but the Heel that he bit was the very Heel that crushed his head.

    Pink
     
    #14 kyredneck, Oct 15, 2023
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  15. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    #15 JesusFan, Oct 15, 2023
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Scripture does not say Jesus died at the hands of Satan..

    Mankind is plenty evil all on its own. They didn’t need Satan to do this evil and scripture never says Satan crucified Jesus.

    The premise is unbiblical, therefore the conclusion is unbiblical.

    peace to you
     
    #16 canadyjd, Oct 15, 2023
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  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    So YOUR premise is that Satan had nothing to do with it?

    Incredible. That you could become so deeply ensconced in your dogma that you refuse to see it.
     
    #17 kyredneck, Oct 15, 2023
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  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes, Scripture does describe Satan as the one who "crushes" Christ.

    In describing Christ's suffering and death, by the predetermined plan of God (He was pleased to crush Him) these are the words recorded in Scripture:

    "wicked", "evil", "evil doers", "wicked men", men who's "father is Satan".

    His killing was described as "unjust", as "sin".

    Yet no verse exists describing Christ dying by God's hand. God's will, yes, not not authored by God.
     
    #18 JonC, Oct 15, 2023
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  19. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I’m just going by what scripture says. I am very much ensconced in the premise we should base what we believe on what scripture actually says and not conjecture.

    Scripture does not say Satan crucified Jesus.

    Since you have turned to personal attacks, I will leave you to your thread.

    Thanks for the conversation

    peace to you
     
    #19 canadyjd, Oct 15, 2023
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    No, you're not. You are denying scripture.

    If you're so thin skinned and delicate that you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. I reiterate with addendum:

    "So YOUR premise is that Satan had nothing to do with it?

    Incredible. That you could become so deeply ensconced in your dogma that you refuse to see it" EVEN TO THE POINT OF DENYING SCRIPTURE.
     
    #20 kyredneck, Oct 15, 2023
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