All made sinners?

[Van]

Romans 5:12:
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (NASB)

Romans 5:19
For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.


Every translation I have found translates these in a similar way, ending with "because all sinned" indicating all humans sinned. However, another verse (Romans 9:11) indicates that babies in the womb have done nothing good or bad. However, abortion has murdered millions of these who had not done anything bad and therefore were not every guilty of either a sin of commission or a sin of omission.

So what does God's inspired word mean when we are said to be made sinners and all sinned?

Two answers have been postulated, they had sinned because they were "guilty" of Adam's sin. However, this seems to violate the teaching that God does not punish the son for the sins of the father. The other, as a consequence of Adam's sin, all humans are "made sinners" and thus the correct understanding of Romans 5:12 is all are in a sinful separated from God state. However, that is not what the verse seems to say. Rather it clearly says we seem to have done something amiss.

Does anyone have an answer to this difficulty?

A solution to this dilemma is to consider that "sin" refers to both of its aspects, the action or thought or omission
and the consequence God imposes for the miss. Thus if "we have sinned means we have been made forfeiters of togetherness with God, then we can say "because all have forfeited.

 

[JonC]

Romans 5:12:
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (NASB)

Romans 5:19
For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.


Every translation I have found translates these in a similar way, ending with "because all sinned" indicating all humans sinned. However, another verse (Romans 9:11) indicates that babies in the womb have done nothing good or bad. However, abortion has murdered millions of these who had not done anything bad and therefore were not every guilty of either a sin of commission or a sin of omission.

So what does God's inspired word mean when we are said to be made sinners and all sinned?

Two answers have been postulated, they had sinned because they were "guilty" of Adam's sin. However, this seems to violate the teaching that God does not punish the son for the sins of the father. The other, as a consequence of Adam's sin, all humans are "made sinners" and thus the correct understanding of Romans 5:12 is all are in a sinful separated from God state. However, that is not what the verse seems to say. Rather it clearly says we seem to have done something amiss.

Does anyone have an answer to this difficulty?

A solution to this dilemma is to consider that "sin" refers to both of its aspects, the action or thought or omission
and the consequence God imposes for the miss. Thus if "we have sinned means we have been made forfeiters of togetherness with God, then we can say "because all have forfeited.

Yes, I have an answer (many will reject it, but it is an answer).

Adam is the representative of all men. We will all sin - not because of Adam's sin but because Adam represents man. Our minds are set on the flesh and it's desires.

We are convinced in iniquity, but we are born sinless....having done no good or bad. But given the opportunity we will sin because we are born with a nature inclined to the flesh.

 

[Reynolds]

Romans 5:12:
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (NASB)

Romans 5:19
For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.


Every translation I have found translates these in a similar way, ending with "because all sinned" indicating all humans sinned. However, another verse (Romans 9:11) indicates that babies in the womb have done nothing good or bad. However, abortion has murdered millions of these who had not done anything bad and therefore were not every guilty of either a sin of commission or a sin of omission.

So what does God's inspired word mean when we are said to be made sinners and all sinned?

Two answers have been postulated, they had sinned because they were "guilty" of Adam's sin. However, this seems to violate the teaching that God does not punish the son for the sins of the father. The other, as a consequence of Adam's sin, all humans are "made sinners" and thus the correct understanding of Romans 5:12 is all are in a sinful separated from God state. However, that is not what the verse seems to say. Rather it clearly says we seem to have done something amiss.

Does anyone have an answer to this difficulty?

A solution to this dilemma is to consider that "sin" refers to both of its aspects, the action or thought or omission
and the consequence God imposes for the miss. Thus if "we have sinned means we have been made forfeiters of togetherness with God, then we can say "because all have forfeited.

It is a question that is as much philosophical as theological. At what age can a person begin to sin?
When Adam sinned, the curse entered the Earth, and specifically it entered man. Man changed both spiritually and physically. Perfection is God's standard of earned Salvation (though earned Salvation exists only in philosophical discussion). With the curse entering mans body, man is no longer a perfect being and he is no longer capable of perfection.
Man is conceived with the effects of sin already present in his mutated DNA. I don't have you an answer, I only have more questions to add to your question.

 

[Van]

Yes, I have an answer (many will reject it, but it is an answer).

Adam is the representative of all men. We will all sin - not because of Adam's sin but because Adam represents man. Our minds are set on the flesh and it's desires.

We are convinced in iniquity, but we are born sinless....having done no good or bad. But given the opportunity we will sin because we are born with a nature inclined to the flesh.

You are right, many will reject your view as unbiblical.
1) Yes, Adam is the first man, and due to his volitional sin, we were all "made sinners."
2) The issue is whether our minds, while unregenerate, are "always" set on fleshly desires, worldly treasures, or snares of Satan. The biblical answer is no, we can consider our "fallen nature" and desire a spiritual nature. Romans 7.
3) Because we are made "sinners" we have all "forfeited" our union with God, being separated from God, thus conceived in a sinful state of being spiritually "dead."

 

[Van]

It is a question that is as much philosophical as theological. At what age can a person begin to sin?
When Adam sinned, the curse entered the Earth, and specifically it entered man. Man changed both spiritually and physically. Perfection is God's standard of earned Salvation (though earned Salvation exists only in philosophical discussion). With the curse entering mans body, man is no longer a perfect being and he is no longer capable of perfection.
Man is conceived with the effects of sin already present in his mutated DNA. I don't have you an answer, I only have more questions to add to your question.

I generally agree, with one nitpick caveat: The effects of sin are already present in our human spirit, as the effects of the fall are passed spiritually, not biologically. I know many think that Adam and Eve before the Fall were immortal physically but then became mortal due to the curse of the Fall. However, since Angels do not marry as there is no need for reproduction, but humans before the Fall, Genesis 1:28, were told to multiply, scripture indicates Adam and Eve were mortal even before the Fall.

 

[Reynolds]

I generally agree, with one nitpick caveat: The effects of sin are already present in our human spirit, as the effects of the fall are passed spiritually, not biologically. I know many think that Adam and Eve before the Fall were immortal physically but then became mortal due to the curse of the Fall. However, since Angels do not marry as there is no need for reproduction, but humans before the Fall, Genesis 1:28, were told to multiply, scripture indicates Adam and Eve were mortal even before the Fall.

Scripture does not indicate mortality prior to the fall. It indicates immortality.

 

[Van]

Scripture does not indicate mortality prior to the fall. It indicates immortality.

I supported my view with Genesis 1:28. Where is your support other than the traditions of men?

 

[Reynolds]

I supported my view with Genesis 1:28. Where is your support other than the traditions of men?

Where in That verse does it indicate human mortality?
I have support, but first I must address the verse you posted as not supporting your position.

 

[Van]

Where in That verse does it indicate human mortality?
I have support, but first I must address the verse you posted as not supporting your position.

I explained that already!!! Please address human reproductive capacity not pointing to mortality!!!

 

[Reynolds]

You

I explained that already!!! Please address human reproductive capacity not pointing to mortality!!!

have not addressed anything. Humans can reproduce. That is no indication Adam was mortal.

 

[Van]

You have not addressed anything. Humans can reproduce. That is no indication Adam was mortal.

Personal incredulity is fallacious argumentation.

Folks, scripture points to Adam and Eve being able to procreate (even before the Fall) which suggests the need for spawning new life in the face of death (even before the Fall).

 

[Reynolds]

Personal incredulity is fallacious argumentation.

Folks, scripture points to Adam and Eve being able to procreate (even before the Fall) which suggests the need for spawning new life in the face of death (even before the Fall).

It only suggests that to you. The ability to procreate does not in any way suggest mortality.

 

[Van]

It only suggests that to you. The ability to procreate does not in any way suggest mortality.

LOL, why did Jesus say Angels do not marry? How long do Angels live?

 

[Reynolds]

LOL, why did Jesus say Angels do not marry? How long do Angels live?

Because they don't marry. Means nothing more than than that.

 

[JonC]

Scripture does not indicate mortality prior to the fall. It indicates immortality.

I'd argue Scripture does not indicate either way.

We could say that Adam would have lived forever had he not sinned.

BUT Adam did sin. And he sinned in the human nature with which he was created (Adam didn't fall and then sin).

Sin, then, was the point that death entered into the world.

We can't say Adam would have never sinned (we can't say he was immortal). But we also can't say that Adam was subject to death prior to sin.

 

[Van]

SNIP

We can't say Adam would have never sinned (we can't say he was immortal). But we also can't say that Adam was subject to death prior to sin.

Why did the "before the Fall" Adam (and Eve) have the capacity to reproduce? Certainly plant death existed before the Fall as Adam ate plants. The "death" that entered humanity (Romans 5:12) due to Adam's sin is our spiritual death, our separation from God. Anything additional is simply a speculative hypothesis.

 

[JonC]

Why did the "before the Fall" Adam (and Eve) have the capacity to reproduce? Certainly plant death existed before the Fall as Adam ate plants. The "death" that entered humanity (Romans 5:12) due to Adam's sin is our spiritual death, our separation from God. Anything additional is simply a speculative hypothesis.

I disagree. I'd say that anything but the death entering being a physical death is simply speculation.

The reason is that God equates death as returning to dust. That, IMHO, points to a physical death.

The reason for the separation is also given in Genesis -
Genesis 3:22–24: Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.


And, Cain was hidden from God's face upon killing Able. (Genesis 4:14).

And it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment (Hebrews 9:27).

 

[Van]

I disagree. I'd say that anything but the death entering being a physical death is simply speculation.

The reason is that God equates death as returning to dust. That, IMHO, points to a physical death.

The reason for the separation is also given in Genesis -
Genesis 3:22–24: Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.


And, Cain was hidden from God's face upon killing Able. (Genesis 4:14).

And it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment (Hebrews 9:27).

We disagree. Your view expands the meaning beyond spiritual death, separation from God. Since death (plant death at a minimum) already existed in Adam's physical realm, for death to enter must refer to spiritual death.

For you to say "physical death" rather than spiritual death is simply speculation. We know sin causes spiritual death.

Finally, we know the Adam would not live forever unless he ate from the tree of life.