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Featured Penal Substitution Atonement Theory - Question

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by kyredneck, Oct 14, 2023.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    :Laugh:Laugh:Laugh:Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao

    Yea.....it will never go well for you telling another person what they believe. That is just stupidity.



    You are trying to tell ME what I believe. And I am telling YOU that you have misunderstood my post.


    When I say that God does not have to punish sin I am not talking about God or God punishing the wicked.

    I am saying that "sin, when fully grown, brings forth death" (James 1:16).

    Either that verse is true or it is not. I say it is.

    Another way of putting it, so that perhaps you will understand, is that God does not need to punish sin in order for death to enter the world because sin itself brings forth death.

    Does that help you to see your mistake?
     
    #141 JonC, Oct 19, 2023
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    #142 kyredneck, Oct 19, 2023
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes. It was the idea Martin rejected because he couldn't reconcile it in his theology to the Temptation of Christ.

    Luke 22:3-6 And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve. And he went away and discussed with the chief priests and officers how he might betray Him to them. They were glad and agreed to give him money. So he consented, and began seeking a good opportunity to betray Him to them apart from the crowd.
     
    #143 JonC, Oct 19, 2023
  4. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    God cannot do anything at all, like skipping the direct punishment of the wicked, AND REMAIN JUST!!!!

    And IF He were not do so, it would mean that God was UNJUST - BY DEFINITION!

    Again, no one has said that anyone has said that!

    He absolutely does need to punish sin if it is His desire to remain just.

    It doesn't bring forth death by some sort of mystical magic. It brings forth death because it is a rebellion against the God who is Life itself. It was God who said, "In the day you eat of it, you shall surely die."

    Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”​

    And that absolutely was a judgment...

    Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

    18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.​


    I've lost track of how many times I've said this now but since I can't place you on ignore, I suppose the next best thing is just to repeat this as often as you repeat the same position without addressing it and instead try to pretend like I'm not understanding your position, which you know that I understand perfectly...

    God is just, therefore you are wrong!

    That single sentence disproves not just this particular bit of lunatic insanity that you believe but most of the rest of what Augustine imported into the Christian faith.
     
    #144 CJP69, Oct 20, 2023
  5. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    I have never once tried to tell you what you believe.

    I am not sure if you are being dishonest (I don't think so) or if you are simply not grasping what has been said.

    You knew this was false when you wrote it. There's a word for people who do that.

    I am making no mistake. If you believe that God COULD not punish the wicked and simply let them exist forever with their of their own sin, which is misery and destruction, yada yada yada - or however you want to put it, then you believe that God COULD be unjust because to do so would ignore the victims of the wicked and therefore would be unjust by definition.

    DO YOU GET IT?

    Let me spell it out!

    I AM NOT suggesting that you are saying that this is what God is going to do.
    I AM NOT suggesting that you are saying that this is what God actually wants to do.
    I AM NOT suggesting that you are saying that God is even considering doing it.

    I 100% AM saying that you are saying that God COULD do it IF He wanted to.

    And I am telling you that you are wrong and if it is this asinine doctrine that clings so tightly to a metaphorical reference to death as a wage of sin that necessarily produces such a belief, which I have my doubts about by the way, then the following sentence proves both false....

    God is just, therefore you are wrong!
     
    #145 CJP69, Oct 20, 2023
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Again, God punishes the wicked.
    How many times do I have to post it until you understand?
    Nobody is saying that God will not punish the wicked.


    What is being said is that sin, when fully grown, brings forth death. It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.

    When I posted that God doesn't have to punish sin because sin brings forth death I was not saying God will not punish the wicked.


    This entire conversation has gone above your head. You are arguing against a position nobody has actually stated.

    I do not know any other way to say it except that sin brings forth death, it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment, and God will judge the wicked.
     
    #146 JonC, Oct 20, 2023
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Lol....you still don't get it.

    I have rephrased it so many ways, but you are still arguing against a position not made.


    God is just and the justifier of sinners.
    God will punish the wicked.
    God will forgive sins.

    What was being discussed was the nature of sin, not the nature of God .

    What is being said is that sin, when fully grown, brings forth death.


    I am starting to think you may be intentionally twisting words to invent an argument. The reason is that it has been explained so many times to you that it is unlikely an adult (supposing English to be their primary language) would be that ignorant.

    The point was that God does not have to punish sin because sin is its own punishment....it brings forth death.
    @CJP69 takes the first part of that and ignores the rest (which is not honest). I think intentionally (he defeated his own argument and wants the topic to change).


    But for the benefit of the board and in case the topic is continued:

    The nature of God was not the point.
    God will punish the wicked.
    God is just.

    The point was that God does not have to punish sin because sin is its own punishment....it brings forth death.

    The wages of sin is death.
    Sin brings forth death.
    It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.
    I'm Christ we escape the wrath to come
    The wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire
     
    #147 JonC, Oct 20, 2023
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This is what I mean. You have failed the comprehend the argument.

    I do not believe that God could refrain from punishing the wicked and simply let them exist forever of their own sin.

    You are making a strawman argument, fighting windmills, because you are arguing against a position nobody here has stated.

    What did I actually state?

    I said that God does not need to punish sin because sin is itself a punishment and brings forth death. That it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment. That sin brings forth death. That the wages of sin is death. And that God will judge the wicked, that the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

    I stated that God WILL punish the wicked - not because He is bound by certain rules but because He is God (just, loving, righteous, holy, merciful).


    I used an illustration - if you drink a deadly poison God does not have to punish you with death for drinking the poison because the poison itself will take care of it.

    You just took a part of that ("God does not need to punish sin") and ran with it. That was a very foolish thing to do.
     
    #148 JonC, Oct 20, 2023
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