Not Closed Theology

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair. Like I said earlier, everyone has to understand their theology and perception of it in their own way to some extent. Calvinists agree that everyone who believes will be saved, that you must hear the gospel in order to be saved, that every single person that is saved will have faith and without it they will not be saved. Where there is disagreement is how you perceive this happens. Is it true that God, because he has endowed us with an autonomous free will that is capable of making a contrary choice at any time - must then wait passively to see what our decision on this will be. Or, does God have some level of actual control in this.

If He does have some level of control does it involve providing opportunity only or does it involve that plus "conviction" or that plus "quickening" or that plus outright determinism? Also, if God knows the future, even as you say a future free choice, then from the time God knows your free choice, are you truly free to change your mind and thus make God wrong or are you somehow bound to that action because it truly was your actual free choice all along? If you say yes, you can always change your mind up until the time the event occurs then God cannot possibly know the future. If you say no, because all God is doing is correctly predicting your free choice so it's still your free choice then a Calvinist will say that because the choice is known by God and yet allowed then it falls under His sovereignty and can be said to be part of his ordained plan. Additionally, it can be said that you did do what you wanted to according to your free choice, yet that choice was under God's sovereignty and worked into His overall plan. It can also be said that you acted freely, and are morally responsible for doing what you did - even though in an overall sense it fitted into God's sovereign plan. Thus destroying the argument that you are not responsible unless the choice is absolutely autonomous.

When you keep putting up verses that everyone already agrees with with the intention to make it seem like they disagree with scripture you are using a false argument and just making people angry. Take on the points I raised in this or fold it up.

Dave you start off quite well but then fall back into the Calvinist perspective. Man does not have an autonomous free will but he does have a God given free will. Determined actions are neither autonomous or free. For some reason you are confusing foreknowing with fore causing. God is omniscient so He knows all that will happen including free will choices. Are you suggesting that all free will choices must be or God is not God?

What can free will mean if not free will?
Free will is the capacity for agents to choose between different possible courses of action (aka choosing “otherwise”). This does not require the person to be able to choose anything, nor does it require the absence of other influencing factors. It only requires the ability for a person confronted with a decision to be able to choose from among one or more possible options.

What level of control are you suggesting? As I have said before man responds to the various influences around him. Be it creation, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, hearing the gospel message or it could be the friends you have that get you to drink or worse. Man does not come to the point of making a choice in isolation. If the choice that man makes is controlled then is it really their choice? If the man only has one option is that a free choice?

If a person changes their mind right at the last moment, God being omniscient world know this so why would he be waiting and if God controlled the choice then the man has no free will so can not be held responsible for the action he did. Bottom line, the Calvinist wants God to determine all things that happen but not be responsible for all the things that happen. Sorry you can not have your cake and eat it too. Man either has a God given free will with which he can make real choices and is responsible for consequences of those choices or he has no free will and is not responsible.

Dave you have said on a number of occasions that God has ordained all the happens then say but not that. You are trying to walk both sides of the street. The Calvinist needs God to micromanage everything or He could not possibly be sovereign. Why do you have such a low view of God? Since your version of God has to control/ordain all things that destroys your argument that man is responsible for his actions as he has no free will

God is sovereign and in His sovereignty He can and does work out His plan of salvation even when man exercises his God given free will.

Dave you ask why I put up verses that according to you the people already agree with. But if they agree with them then why do they not believe them? It is not like the English is hard to understand. When the bible says, hear the gospel, believe the gospel, then you are saved why do Calvinist's insist that you have to be saved before you can believe? I could go on but I am sure you get the picture.

I am not here to make people angry but when I post scripture it is to point out their error in what they are saying. Would you not do the same?

 

[DaveXR650]

Determined actions are neither autonomous or free. For some reason you are confusing foreknowing with fore causing. God is omniscient so He knows all that will happen including free will choices. Are you suggesting that all free will choices must be or God is not God?

But an action can be permitted to occur and be totally free as long as it was permitted. I don't see how God allowing you to do something and yet maintaining his right to intervene in any way infringes upon your freedom - if he does not actually intervene. And if he is God, would you not agree that right to intervene according to his wisdom and purpose is proper, if he so chooses?

It only requires the ability for a person confronted with a decision to be able to choose from among one or more possible options.

I agree with you here and the fact is so do most Calvinists in practice. That's why you have all the sermons warning people not to put off coming to Christ. Owen has a whole booklet on the dangers of and the importance of avoiding apostacy. Does that sound like someone who doesn't believe people can choose the wrong option?
What Calvinism does right is to realistically understand our natural tendencies when we express our free wills rather than relying on a false understanding of the value and purity of our natural, sovereign self. It tends to view any movement of us toward God in a proper way to be the result of the Spirit working in us rather than the result of a rational power of our own reasoning.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What Calvinism does right is to realistically understand our natural tendencies when we express our free wills rather than relying on a false understanding of the value and purity of our natural, sovereign self. It tends to view any movement of us toward God in a proper way to be the result of the Spirit working in us rather than the result of a rational power of our own reasoning.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Bingo! So when it comes to Salvation, it is unwilling to give God all the glory. This free will position devides the glory between heaven & earth, for if what ultimately makes the difference between being saved and being lost is man’s ability to choose God, then to that extent God is robbed of His glory. Yet God himself has said, “I will not yield my glory to another.” Isa. 48:11

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Synergism - Wikipedia

 

[Silverhair]

But an action can be permitted to occur and be totally free as long as it was permitted. I don't see how God allowing you to do something and yet maintaining his right to intervene in any way infringes upon your freedom - if he does not actually intervene. And if he is God, would you not agree that right to intervene according to his wisdom and purpose is proper, if he so chooses?

Dave if something is only permitted then is it really free? Your words "as long as it was permitted" takes away free will. People have done and still do things that go against God's will are you saying that He works against Himself? Are you saying that every deed that Satan causes is permitted by God? Remember God is the ultimate authority so if He permits something to happen then He is responsible for the action. God does not intervene because He has given man an actual free will not the pseudo free will that you are speaking of. And yes God could intervene if He so chose, He is God after all.

I agree with you here and the fact is so do most Calvinists in practice. That's why you have all the sermons warning people not to put off coming to Christ. Owen has a whole booklet on the dangers of and the importance of avoiding apostacy. Does that sound like someone who doesn't believe people can choose the wrong option?
What Calvinism does right is to realistically understand our natural tendencies when we express our free wills rather than relying on a false understanding of the value and purity of our natural, sovereign self. It tends to view any movement of us toward God in a proper way to be the result of the Spirit working in us rather than the result of a rational power of our own reasoning.

I agree that most Calvinist's do realize that man's free will is proven by real life, they just can not accept that fact when it comes to the most important choice a person can make. For some strange reason Calvinist's think man has a free will to only choose the bad. Why do you think God holds man responsible for rejecting His son if He being omniscient would know that they could only reject His son. You even agree that man has a free will when you refer to all the sermons warning people not to put off coming to Christ. If they do not have a free will than how can they make the choice to trust or reject God.

Dave I do expect better of you, why do you trot out the false Calvinist narrative of man being sovereign? I have said many times that the Holy Spirit convicts everyone of their sinful nature and hearing the gospel message can convince man that his only means of salvation is through faith in Christ Jesus. Where Calvinist's go off the rails is when they say that man is unable to use his God given abilities to evaluate the information to make real choices. Man does not make choices in isolation but evaluates the information available to them. That is the reality that we all experience everyday man will in the majority of case choose what he sees as acting in his best interest. It is only the Calvinist that wants to deny reality and say that man could never choose to trust in Christ Jesus even though it is in the man's best interest to do so.

 

[DaveXR650]

Are you saying that every deed that Satan causes is permitted by God?

Yes. If you don't believe that then go right now, take a pair of scissors, and cut the book of Job out of your Bible.

Remember God is the ultimate authority so if He permits something to happen then He is responsible for the action.

Yes. That is what I mean by God being "sovereign".

God does not intervene because He has given man an actual free will not the pseudo free will that you are speaking of. And yes God could intervene if He so chose, He is God after all.

This is true. The last sentence is exactly what I have been trying to explain to you.

For some strange reason Calvinist's think man has a free will to only choose the bad.

Of all the things I have ever read about Calvinism, this is the area most proven to be true. The idea that we are depraved and on our own do not tend to desire God is proven over and over again each generation and in every culture and human tribe. It is believed by all Calvinists, Roman Catholics and by classic Arminians who believe in the necessity of "prevenient" grace. Only when you get into semi-Pelagians, Pelagians, and Socinians is this truth debated. It is one tenet of Calvinism that we can prove by observation and experience without even relying on the scriptures, even though they do back it up.

Why do you think God holds man responsible for rejecting His son if He being omniscient would know that they could only reject His son.

Because the sole reason man can only reject His son is because man wants to reject His son. As long as that is the reason then why would we not be responsible for following our own desires?

It is only the Calvinist that wants to deny reality and say that man could never choose to trust in Christ Jesus even though it is in the man's best interest to do so.

You say this now because you are a Christian and you "see" the value and the desirability of Christ. Before you were saved you didn't. Calvinists, and not just Calvinists but many types of Christians believe that the Holy Spirit somehow enlightens or illuminates you to see the need to come to Christ. This is where I said you have to determine yourself how you handle these theological explanations and the related scriptures. Is this grace given equally to everyone? Does it work with or completely outside our own reason? Can it be resisted? Is it always overcoming in the case of those who are saved? Is quickening the same as being born again and does that cause faith, or come after or when a person believes? And in all these areas let me just say that I find evidence for different points of view and I tend to not be dogmatic in my own views. And I admit I am still learning and could be wrong.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes. If you don't believe that then go right now, take a pair of scissors, and cut the book of Job out of your Bible

I know about Job but as has been shown a number of times Calvinist's tend to use one case example, God giving permission in Job, as if it is the only way that it can be. God has to give permission for all thing to happen. That is a logically false narrative. By your logic God has to give permission for all the rapes, killings, torture etc. Think through what you are saying Dave.

Yes. That is what I mean by God being "sovereign".

Good we agree on that but the question is why do Calvinist's not allow Him to be sovereign?

This is true. The last sentence is exactly what I have been trying to explain to you.

But God being able to intervene does not require that He does intervene as you, and most Calvinist's seem to think.

Of all the things I have ever read about Calvinism, this is the area most proven to be true. The idea that we are depraved and on our own do not tend to desire God is proven over and over again each generation and in every culture and human tribe. It is believed by all Calvinists, Roman Catholics and by classic Arminians who believe in the necessity of "prevenient" grace. Only when you get into semi-Pelagians, Pelagians, and Socinians is this truth debated. It is one tenet of Calvinism that we can prove by observation and experience without even relying on the scriptures, even though they do back it up.

To say that man is depraved does not say that he can not choose to do good. Did you ever do any good thing before you were saved? I should imaging you did. Have you ever done any bad thing since you were saved? Again I should imaging you did.
I note you said that man does not tend to desire God and I agree but he does indeed at times desire God. This may be when he has heard the gospel message or is being convicted by the Holy Spirit but in either case it is still the man that has to choose to trust or reject the gospel message or the conviction of the Holy Spirit. That is free will Dave. You try to avoid the obvious but it is there to see in the realty of life and the bible backs this up.

Because the sole reason man can only reject His son is because man wants to reject His son. As long as that is the reason then why would we not be responsible for following our own desires?

Again Dave you have shown man has a free will. Logically for man to reject Christ he had to have had the ability to accept Christ.
Free will is the capacity for agents to choose between different possible courses of action (aka choosing “otherwise”). This does not require the person to be able to choose anything, nor does it require the absence of other influencing factors. It only requires the ability for a person confronted with a decision to be able to choose from among one or more possible options.

You say this now because you are a Christian and you "see" the value and the desirability of Christ. Before you were saved you didn't. Calvinists, and not just Calvinists but many types of Christians believe that the Holy Spirit somehow enlightens or illuminates you to see the need to come to Christ. This is where I said you have to determine yourself how you handle these theological explanations and the related scriptures. Is this grace given equally to everyone? Does it work with or completely outside our own reason? Can it be resisted? Is it always overcoming in the case of those who are saved? Is quickening the same as being born again and does that cause faith, or come after or when a person believes? And in all these areas let me just say that I find evidence for different points of view and I tend to not be dogmatic in my own views. And I admit I am still learning and could be wrong.

Of course as a Christian I say that trusting in Christ is in any man's best interest. But before anyone is saved they must consider trusting in Christ is in their best interest or they would not trust in Christ so as to be saved would they. So the question is what does man have available to him that he can consider? Creation, the gospel message, conviction by the Holy Spirit we could go on but you get the picture. God has provided the information but man has to evaluate that information.

God does not believe for anyone but will save anyone that believes that is why the Paul tells us "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes" Rom 1:16
It is man's responsibility to respond in faith to the gospel before God is gracious and saves them "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" Eph 1:13
The offer of salvation is not limited to a select few but to all "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." Joh 3:17

Do all respond to the promptings of God, as reality shows most do not. You presented a series of questions but I think they can all be answered here. If man does not have a free will then any and all things that happen are the responsibility of God. If God has determined all that happens then there can not be one random action so you can not logically say man choose to do something.

Dave the question you should try to answer is, why would God determine that the vast majority of humanity would reject Him?

 

[Silverhair]

Bingo! So when it comes to Salvation, it is unwilling to give God all the glory. This free will position devides the glory between heaven & earth, for if what ultimately makes the difference between being saved and being lost is man’s ability to choose God, then to that extent God is robbed of His glory. Yet God himself has said, “I will not yield my glory to another.” Isa. 48:11

How does man humbling himself before God take glory from God? The reality is that man exercising his God given free will gives more glory to God than a system that says God arbitrarily chose to condemn the vast majority to an eternity in hell when He could have saved them.

Those that think they were chosen before the foundation of the world must think they are somehow special so in reality they are the ones that want to share in God's glory.

 

[DaveXR650]

Calvinist's tend to use one case example, God giving permission in Job, as if it is the only way that it can be. God has to give permission for all thing to happen.

Not that Satan always comes before God and has a conversation as in Job but yet God always knows of Satan's schemes and I think stops them or allows them as He sees fit. I don't know why we are privy to that conversation in Job but one conversation that you won't find is God saying "great, now I have to find another Moses or Paul because Satan blocked me or they got tired of following me". And you don't find Jesus asking 427 different men to be his disciples until he found 12 that would agree to come along according to their own free will.

But before anyone is saved they must consider trusting in Christ is in their best interest or they would not trust in Christ so as to be saved would they. So the question is what does man have available to him that he can consider? Creation, the gospel message, conviction by the Holy Spirit we could go on but you get the picture. God has provided the information but man has to evaluate that information.

I tend to agree with you there but you should be aware that Calvinists call those things "means" and would agree that they are essential. They would also add preaching, observation of the sacraments in church, things that happen to one in life, and so on. When we become believers it of course will seem to us that we have figured this all out and we decided for Christ. There is nothing wrong with that but when you really sit down and think "how did I come to this conclusion" you will discover that it is really time to thank God rather than your own reasoning ability. Ask yourself, if the Holy Spirit in no way acted to help you in any way, would you have come to Christ using the above things on your own?

God does not believe for anyone but will save anyone that believes that is why the Paul tells us "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes" Rom 1:16

I agree. Just be aware that most Calvinist preachers teach that refusing to believe is one of the most outrageous, heinous things a human can do. Now some Calvinists seem to suggest that God has nothing to say to the non-elect and they have no responsibility to believe. I don't agree with them in that area. And, while I believe that God had specific people in mind when Jesus went to the cross I do not believe that at that time God willfully shut the door on millions of people who at that point or even at a point earlier, now have no possibility of salvation. If you are currently still breathing, or if you have not been born yet, you can be saved upon believing the gospel. This is where we as individuals have to work these things out in our own minds. Most of us on here are laymen and don't have to defend every aspect of a school of thought like you would if you were a denominational preacher or seminary professor. And of course I might be wrong and I might change my mind too.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

How does man humbling himself before God take glory from God? The reality is that man exercising his God given free will gives more glory to God than a system that says God arbitrarily chose to condemn the vast majority to an eternity in hell when He could have saved them.

Those that think they were chosen before the foundation of the world must think they are somehow special so in reality they are the ones that want to share in God's glory.

That’s utter BS! You must be a Universalist, so nobody goes to hell according to you.
God has declared: “It is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast” Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And I suppose you have never read Romans 9 quoting Malachi 1:2-3 and Exodus 9:16,17

Paul’s concludes, “therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he want’s to harden.”

Romans 9:14-24

 

[Silverhair]

That’s utter BS! You must be a Universalist, so nobody goes to hell according to you.
God has declared: “It is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast” Ephesians 2:8-9

@Earth Wind and Fire you need to open your eyes and start reading without the Calvinist philosophy.

 

[Silverhair]

That’s utter BS! You must be a Universalist, so nobody goes to hell according to you.
God has declared: “It is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast” Ephesians 2:8-9

So what is BS @Earth Wind and Fire. That God only selects certain people to be saved or that He could have saved everyone? You need to be clearer with your comments..

 

[MrW]

Per 157, TULIP destroys Scripture—if you believe it.

I born and raised in the PBC—Hardshells. They are not just Calvinist, but are hyper-Calvinists.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

@Earth Wind and Fire you need to open your eyes and start reading without the Calvinist philosophy.

LOL… what Calvinist philosophy? I’m not a Calvinist rather I’m a child of God. I see thru the eyes of Christ despite my sinful leanings. I do not follow any wayward philosophy, especially one that adds man’s will vs Gods sovereign will. You however need to stop your own rebellion to your Sovereign Lord. Many here have suggested it to you and you have rejected it but I tell you this bluntly. Other than that, we have nothing to discuss. salvation belongs to the Lord.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Per 157, TULIP destroys Scripture—if you believe it.

I born and raised in the PBC—Hardshells. They are not just Calvinist, but are hyper-Calvinists.

Being raised as a genuine original Baptist and now you reject them!?! Indeed you demean them and misrepresent them??? Wow, you should be ashamed of yourself. Perhaps you should discuss your false objections here publicly instead of throwing rocks like the chosen people did to Stephen. In short, I’m calling you out!

 

[Silverhair]

Not that Satan always comes before God and has a conversation as in Job but yet God always knows of Satan's schemes and I think stops them or allows them as He sees fit. I don't know why we are privy to that conversation in Job but one conversation that you won't find is God saying "great, now I have to find another Moses or Paul because Satan blocked me or they got tired of following me". And you don't find Jesus asking 427 different men to be his disciples until he found 12 that would agree to come along according to their own free will. .

I agree with what you have said but remember you wanted to use Job & Satan as an example of how God deals with people. From what I have seen of the Calvinist view if God does not give permission, ordain or determine something to happen it can not happen. But when you point out that would logically make God the author of all sin and evil the Calvinist says no that is not what it means. Does the added examples make your case for you, no they do not. Yes God does determine some things but not all things as you seem to be trying to prove.

I tend to agree with you there but you should be aware that Calvinists call those things "means" and would agree that they are essential. They would also add preaching, observation of the sacraments in church, things that happen to one in life, and so on. When we become believers it of course will seem to us that we have figured this all out and we decided for Christ. There is nothing wrong with that but when you really sit down and think "how did I come to this conclusion" you will discover that it is really time to thank God rather than your own reasoning ability. Ask yourself, if the Holy Spirit in no way acted to help you in any way, would you have come to Christ using the above things on your own? .

It does not change the fact that the man has to make the choice it is not made for him. I have to ask you, who do you think figures it out for the man? That God has provided the information, what you would call means, does not alter the fact the man has to evaluate the information and make a choice. You ask if I would have come to trust in Christ if the Holy Spirit had not acted in some way? I know you have seen this before but it bears repeating. We have creation, the gospel message, the conviction of the Holy Spirit etc. These are all ways that God acts in our lives but just because those are there does not mean that the person has trust in Christ Jesus. The person still has to choose to trust in the risen Son. That is what free will means.

I agree. Just be aware that most Calvinist preachers teach that refusing to believe is one of the most outrageous, heinous things a human can do. Now some Calvinists seem to suggest that God has nothing to say to the non-elect and they have no responsibility to believe. I don't agree with them in that area. And, while I believe that God had specific people in mind when Jesus went to the cross I do not believe that at that time God willfully shut the door on millions of people who at that point or even at a point earlier, now have no possibility of salvation. If you are currently still breathing, or if you have not been born yet, you can be saved upon believing the gospel. This is where we as individuals have to work these things out in our own minds. Most of us on here are laymen and don't have to defend every aspect of a school of thought like you would if you were a denominational preacher or seminary professor. And of course I might be wrong and I might change my mind too.

The fact “that most Calvinist preachers teach that refusing to believe is one of the most outrageous, heinous things a human can do.” shows that man has a free will, otherwise why would it be an outrageous or heinous thing? But according to Calvinism if you were not picked before the foundation of the world then you could not even want to be saved. So it is not refusing to believe rather it’s they could not believe by decree.

Yes Christ had specific people in mind when He went to the cross, the world. “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.” Joh 3:17 Remember He said He would draw all people to Himself not just some people. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Joh 12:32 If on the other hand you mean that Christ had only a select group of people in mind then by extension those that were not in His mind were excluded from the possibility of salvation.

But I do not think that is what you mean when one considers your words here. “If you are currently still breathing, or if you have not been born yet, you can be saved upon believing the gospel.”

 

[Silverhair]

LOL… what Calvinist philosophy? I’m not a Calvinist rather I’m a child of God. I see thru the eyes of Christ despite my sinful leanings. I do not follow any wayward philosophy, especially one that adds man’s will vs Gods sovereign will. You however need to stop your own rebellion to your Sovereign Lord. Many here have suggested it to you and you have rejected it but I tell you this bluntly. Other than that, we have nothing to discuss. salvation belongs to the Lord.

@Earth Wind and Fire you are the one that keeps throwing "stones". I quote scripture and you fall back to your DoG and still claim not to be a Calvinist. The baptist trust all of scripture not just select verses as you seem to do. You referred to the Romans letter, it has great theology in it. But it has more than chapter 9.


Peace with God Through Faith
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
Rom 5:4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
Rom 5:5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom 5:11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Yes many Calvinist's have told me that I have to trust their philosophy but I will just trust scripture. And by that I mean all of scripture not just select verses taken out of context.
I will pray that God will open your eyes to the whole truth as the Holy Spirit has inspired it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So what is BS @Earth Wind and Fire. That God only selects certain people to be saved or that He could have saved everyone? You need to be clearer with your comments..

I’m Crystal clear… it’s you that is in rebellion.