Featured Not Closed Theology

This is the reason that I enjoy interacting with you Dave. You are logical and you strip out the emotion. You see salvation through one lens I through another. We would both say we are biblical and we both say that salvation is only through the grace of God. It may come down to the point that when we stand in front of God He will tell us both that we almost got it right.

I have no problem saying that my salvation is all God's doing, I could not save myself. Even my faith in Christ does not save me, faith is just the God given condition of salvation. God is the one that actually saves.

 

I view this so different from you.
The Bible says that we will believe and confess, precisely because God has graciously chosen to make us alive when we were dead in sin.

I see scripture stating that God's grace comes first, then faith, believing and confession comes as a result.

You, above, state that a human must exert faith (even while being spiritually dead and unmoved by God) to believe, then confess their sins. Only after those conditions are met, will God choose to say yes. You call that choice of God's, after man has met the conditions, grace. That's not grace, Silverhair. That's you meeting a condition that demands God's justice in saving you because you met the conditions.

Brother, you don't know what grace is if you teach this method of salvation.

 

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith;

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

I know you will say you believe these verses but from what you have just posted I have to doubt that you do. What you have posted contradicts scripture so either you are correct or scripture is. You choose.

 

Wow, you are questioning this guys very salvation. Be careful.

 

Sure Dave, after all what is the harm in adding just a little bit of human effort to the work of God? Reminds me of those 35 years I spent in the RCC… they also insisted that the will of man is the decisive factor in salvation. And so is this the soteriology you see as plausible… really Dave?!?

 

Any theological system that insists upon blending religion with political, I object to. If churches want to legislate from the pulpit they should surrender their tax deferments because they ostensively have become the marketing arm for politicians and we all know they are only here to serve their citizens, right! ​

 

Ephesians 2:4-9
But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Ephesians 2:4-9
But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Ephesians 2:4-9
But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Ephesians 2:4-9
But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Ephesians 2:4-9
But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Ephesians 2:4-9
But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

You, earlier, state that a human must exert faith (even while being spiritually dead and unmoved by God) to believe, then confess their sins. Only after those conditions are met, will God choose to say yes. You call that choice of God's, after man has met the conditions, grace. That's not grace, Silverhair. That's you meeting a condition that demands God's justice in saving you because you met the conditions.

Notice what God says and then recognize that you do not teach this.

God:
Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Silverhair:
Did you forget that the bible says we have to believe, confess and God through His grace will save us. So faith is a condition that God has set.

 

I think there is a difference between adding works to salvation and calling it "works" to respond to the gospel message. I know Owen, and others used this argument against the Arminians but keep in mind that Owen also is the one who said Christ cannot do anything for you if you do not believe.

What you are in danger of doing is ending up with a system of theology that leaves you with nothing but relying on the fact that you are elect - you cannot even say you responded to the gospel message without moving into "works". At some point you have to acknowledge that it is you who must believe, whether you believe the faith is a gift or whether you believe you were born again first and believed as a result of that the fact is you must believe. That is the condition, period, and it is what you must do.

Chronologically, I see both sides but one thing I know is that no one is walking around who believes yet is not elect. And no one who is elect will go through their life and never come to faith. I believe that all the sovereign, monergistic work of the Holy Spirit to get us to "see" the value of Christ and to understand our sinful condition is designed to work on our will so that we then can come to Christ. But don't make the mistake of thinking that we really don't have to personally come to Christ and believe.

 

Human beings face the choice either to submit to the will of God or to pursue their own will, and this choice has implications for everything else we think and do.

 

This is from Edwards work "Pressing into the Kingdom of God".
"God comes this day and knocks at many persons doors; and at your door among the rest. God seems to come in a very unusual manner amongst us, upon a gracious and merciful design; a design of saving a number of poor miserable souls out of a lost and perishing condition, and of bringing them into a happy state and eternal glory! This is offered to you, not only as it always has been in the word and ordinances, but by the particular influences of the Spirit of Christ awakening you! This special offer is made to many amongst us, and you are not passed over. Christ has not forgot you but has come to your door and there as it were stands waiting for you to open to him. If you have wisdom and discretion to discern your own advantage, you will know that now is your opportunity."
This is what I mean where there is a balance of the idea of the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit and of the necessity of man's proper response. Notice the last sentence. This is something @Silverhair or @Revmitchell could have said and been taken to task for on this board. But the fact is, without the work of the Spirit you will not be saved, God is not passive in this, and yet your response is truly necessary and you can be judged as being a fool if you reject it. And there is the possibility one will reject it.

 

Not questioning his salvation just whether he actually believes what the bible says in the verses I posted or has read into it what he wants to find. The text is clear and it contradicts what he posted so it can only be one or the other.

 

I see you Frankly just straddling both sides of the fence rather than spiritually coming to terms with Gods supremacy. When the HS visits you then the light goes on… otherwise you remain in darkness. He does not rely on you the pot to tell the creator of that pot how to form it. Could it be that perhaps your real underpinning is Fundamentalism but you present yourself as a evangelical? I have to admit that I distance myself from them except when I feel really called.

And as we discussed before, this trend can be illustrated from the Fuller Theological Seminary which I’m sure you are aware of. Originally Reformed, they opened up to Arminian perspectives… i do see from your comments a similar property, so perhaps your a secret Fullerite. I caution you again that this form of postmodern evangelism is aggressively attempting to reorganize orthodox perspectives into prevailing Christian thought.

Now since I’m an Old School Primitive Baptists with allot of past history from my old RCC base (cringe) I know that it’s not going to work well for the masses struggling with believing issues. Many are becoming frustrated, not finding solace in modern religion. People are walking away! And the strain is being felt in all Christian institutions & they are loosing the battle for hearts and minds. There are no Baptist churches in my town, certainly no Primitive Baptist Churches ( in the entire state of New Jersey ) so I’m forced to visit a blended church miles away. I’m not comfortable there because there is no absolutes and I’m not a tolerant person.
When they start with their” Kum By Ahh” sing alongs or start emulating Calvinists and Arminians my skin crawls. And I see others struggling with it as well. I don’t see a future for many of these churches wether they be blended Fullerites, Reformed Baptists, United Methodists blah blah blah. Sooo, perhaps you should really stop waffling and … well, you get the drift.

 

Did you not read these verses:

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

And you even quoted this on and still do not seem to understand it

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith;

I understand that this is hard for you to accept but it is the biblical truth.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

You write that one has to exert faith as if faith is a work but the bible disagrees with you. Faith is not a work but it is a requirement of salvation.

Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

What in this text do you not understand?

Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

 

You have read Brother Glen “Tyndales” recall statement of Edwards… I have to defer to his commentary.

 

@Earth Wind and Fire. I have just noticed a lot of overlap in many of these doctrines, at least in practice, and in the preaching of some of the most staunch and famous defenders of Calvinism, like John Owen. Our old church used to have preachers fill in for our pastor from the Primitive Baptist church in Cincinnati and I really liked them. I have some friends there also. I have noticed no extreme or problematic teachings in that church. I currently go to a church that is less Calvinist and more Baptist than the old church but the pastor still quotes Sproul and Spurgeon quite often and I'm sure that the associate pastor is totally Calvinist. I say that just to point out that I think a lot of the conflict in reality is of no value to those of us who are Christian laymen. I hate to see guys miss out on some great sermons and teaching because they may not agree on every issue.

 

Did you not read Ephesians 2:1-9 which clarifies exactly how people come to believe?

At some point you will be forced to acknowledge that God is the initiator in everyone's salvation, giving life to the dead, even while they are still dead.

You continually cherry pick verses with no regard for the biblical context which consistently tells you that God chooses whom it is that will believe and be saved.

So, keep quoting verses, because each quotation shows us all that God's grace is the cause of belief.

Yet, you deny God as the cause of your belief. You promote man as the cause of his belief by meeting a legal condition that God has set. You declare that the legal condition man must first meet is to exert a willful faith in God (even though they are entirely dead and cannot exert faith) before God can do anything.

Once again, your gospel is graceless. Yours is a legal procedure whereby man meets a requirement and God, because He is just, is obligated to complete by giving man his stamp of approval.

There is no grace in your method, despite your claims to such a thing. Thus it becomes obvious that you do not understand God's grace in salvation. Every post you make shows us your inability to grasp grace.

I can only pray that you will see your failure to understand.

 

I can get the sermons on line… frankly they are boring, the town isn’t my community and the parking is crowded.

 

You continue to avoid clear scripture and say I do not understand the text I post in context but I note you do not post any scripture to support your contention. Your denial of scripture in favor of what some man tells you the bible says is telling.

Peace with God Through Faith
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
Rom 5:4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
Rom 5:5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom 5:11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Act 10:42 "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
Act 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

You keep saying the context changes what these texts say and that they do not mean what I contend they do. So show us where this difference is via scripture. Your philosophy will not help you here and scripture will show your error.

What you continue to post shows that you do not grasp/understand scripture. You seem to think you have to correct what the Holy Spirit inspired. Is this not a display of hubris on your part that we see.

 

I note that @Silverhair will never acknowledge what God clearly tells him in Ephesians 2:1-9. He won't acknowledge what Jesus tells him in John 6, John 10, and John 17. He won't acknowledge the repeated statements of Paul, Peter, and John that believers are chosen, adopted, and elect.

What he does is quote verses that don't address the process of salvation, but the effect of salvation.

Note that @Silverhair will not even acknowledge his own words and how they contradict God's word.

Here is the contrast between what God says and what Silverhair says.

God:
Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Silverhair:
Did you forget that the bible says we have to believe, confess and God through His grace will save us. So faith is a condition that God has set.

 

@taisto lets try this again shall we.

You continue to avoid clear scripture and say I do not understand the text I post in context but I note you do not post any scripture to support your contention. Your denial of scripture in favor of what some man tells you the bible says is telling.

Peace with God Through Faith
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
Rom 5:4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
Rom 5:5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom 5:11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Act 10:42 "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
Act 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

You keep saying the context changes what these texts say and that they do not mean what I contend they do. So show us where this difference is via scripture. Your philosophy will not help you here and scripture will show your error.

What you continue to post shows that you do not grasp/understand scripture. You seem to think you have to correct what the Holy Spirit inspired. Is this not a display of hubris on your part that we see.

Surely you can quote some scripture that supports your view. Your shotgun approach proves nothing. I could say the same thing as you have that it supports God requiring man to trust in His son for salvation, Oh wait I have done that.

@taisto provide some clear scripture not something that you have to twist or read into for your support.