Featured Irrational theology.

@taisto if you want to listen to some man or men tell you what they believe re the end times that is your choice. I understand that you disagree with what the bible says, your choice, but I do not. I believe the Holy Spirit inspired John to write what He wanted us to know.

You say there is no 1000 yr reign and the bible says there is so I will stick with the bible. As to listening to someone tell me that the bible is wrong, well after thinking it over, I will pass on that but thanks anyway. I have been a Christian way to long to start questioning God's word now.

 

What I get from your post here is that I shouldn't listen to you. You got it.

No one is questioning God. We are questioning each other's interpretation of this passage in the Bible.

 

@taisto I did not say that you should listen to me but you should listen to what the Holy Spirit has said. You have pointed to men outside the bible and I point to the bible. You read into the bible what you need to find when to deny what the clear text says.

So yes I do question your interpretation of that passage. You say that Satan being bound for 1000 yrs is figurative but what else in that passage is figurative? The thrones, the souls of those beheaded, the fact their lived and reigned with Christ for a 1000 yrs or that this was the first resurrection.

In another post you said that Satan being bound only meant that he was restricted by God in the same way he was when he dealt with Job. But that is not what we see in the text of scripture is it?
Rev 20:2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

 

It is irrational to claim that those in Christ are still in a state of death.

The last day resurrection was the Cross. There is no other resurrection waiting for those in Christ.

Life is realized at the day of redemption when a soul leaves Adam's dead corruptible physical body and enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body. 2 Corinthians 5:1.

We do not need to be sealed in Paradise with the Holy Spirit as we are now passed from death into life. Those physically in Paradise will rise first as they come with Christ when He is leaving heaven, to meet us in the air. That is the opening of the 5th and 6th Seals.

John was in heaven, when this takes place. He was viewing the Second Coming from heaven's perspective. The church was given a robe of white and told to wait until the rest of the final harvest was gathered. John was writing down things as they happened.

The bottomless pit has not been opened. It will be opened after the Second Coming as the first woe. Then it will be closed when Satan is bound in chains and placed in the pit for 1,000 years. Jesus being on earth is not limited to 1,000 years. That is the time Satan is bound, within the time frame of Jesus being on earth for the Second Coming.

This earth has never been the home of the church. Nor will the church be found on the earth during the Millennium. The church never returns to this earth. The church returns in the New Jerusalem to the new earth. Talk about crowding and overpopulation. The church cannot even procreate.

The Day of the Lord is to bring creation under subjection. The final harvest is not the church. The final harvest is the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom that will fill and subdue the earth, after Adam's dead corruptible flesh is removed; Daniel 9:24.

Matthew 25:31 is not Revelation 20:11.

Matthew 25:31 is the Second Coming. The sheep are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. They certainly are not the dead from death and sheol after the millennium is over. Revelation 20:11 is not the Second Coming after the millennium is over. If you claim Matthew 25:31 is the GWT event in Revelation 20, you cannot be pre-mill. That would make you amil or post mill. By Revelation 20:11 those sheep in Matthew 25:31 will have already lived on the earth for over a thousand years, then you kill them and toss them someplace? How is that rational?

 

I suggest you listen to Riddelbargers lectures and that will help you.

 

Of the four main views of Revelation, which do you hold?
1) Preterist
2) Historicist
3) Amillennialist
4) Futurist

 

I been here for over 20 yrs... Rare indeed... Men can't, but God can!... Brother Glen

 

I suggest that you listen to the Holy Spirit that will help you.

In post # 24 I asked you how you would deal with:
Rev 20:2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

In another post you said that Satan being bound only meant that he was restricted by God in the same way he was when he dealt with Job. But that is not what we see in the text of scripture is it? If you do not have a logical response then just say so.

You say that Satan being bound for 1000 yrs is figurative but what else in that passage is figurative? The thrones, the souls of those beheaded, the fact their lived and reigned with Christ for a 1000 yrs or that this was the first resurrection.

From what I have seen of your comments you want us to believe some man rather than the Holy Spirit. Why is that?

As for listening to Riddlebarger, when someone tells me that the bible is wrong re the 1000 yrs that the bible clearly states then I can not give much weight to their comments.

 

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

If you weren't quickened you wouldn't have it now would you?... Brother Glen

 

I know your past training makes it very hard for you as it requires a significant paradigm shift from what you were taught by your mentors.
However, what does scripture tell you?
(Ephesians 2:1-10)
Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else. But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

(2 Corinthians 5:14-17)
Either way, Christ’s love controls us. Since we believe that Christ died for all, we also believe that we have all died to our old life. He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them. So we have stopped evaluating others from a human point of view. At one time we thought of Christ merely from a human point of view. How differently we know him now! This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!

Again, Amillenialism is very rational and steeped in scripture. You may not agree with it, but it is dedicated to Godly study of the Bible.

 

None of those. Not even sure what the futurist interpretation entails. The Day of the Lord that is coming is as real as the Day of the Lord in Genesis 2, that was called a Sabbath Day. God did nothing except let His creation exist for dozens of generations.

The book of Revelation fills in the gap mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.

"afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end."

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

The reigning started from the Cross, but at the Second Coming, the reigning will be a realization by all living on the earth. It will not be an unseen kingdom forever.

Part of Revelation covers the time of the church as noted as the fulness of the Gentiles. The Second Coming is covered. The cleanup. The last hold out of Satan, where even then many will reject Satan even while he has full control and authority of earth. Then the Day of the Lord where earth will have the last 1,000 years to exist as originally designed. This creation was not made just for sin and Satan. Although both happened fairly quickly and the rest has been history.

Then Revelation gives us a glimpse into the next reality, unlike Genesis which seems to indicate there was nothing prior to this reality. Revelation was written from the point of view that John was writing in a past tense, because He wrote immediately after experiencing what he wrote.

Revelation is not Preterist, because John was not writing as if all would be over in the first century.

Revelation is not a series of parallel views of the history of earth from the Cross to forever. Historist is just a fancy term for post everything.

Amil is just an idealist historist perspective, some even being partial preterist.

Futurist still have the Second Coming at the wrong point in history.

Jesus will come to earth in the future to finish the work started at the first coming. That work will not be complete until sin and death are no more.

 

@37818
When they start to wander away from scripture and fall into allegory they can make the bible say anything they want it to say. Merely the believers salvation, how in the world can they possibly they come to that from scripture?

Well now I can chalk up one more reason to reject that view. Thanks for the info.

 

Two things that you overlooked. 1] hath he quickened is not in the Greek text 2] context shows that Paul is speaking of salvation not resurrection. By including these two verses you get the correct understanding.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),


If being saved equaled the first resurrection as you say then what Christ said here:
Mat_22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
makes not sense.

 

To be honest, your view sounds similar to Amil in that there is only one more return of Christ when he puts to death sin and unrighteousness.

 

It is called the second birth, not the first resurrection.

I agree that all those currently in Paradise have experienced the first resurrection. They have a permanent incorruptible physical body. The first resurrection is physical, so they have had a physical resurrection like those from the OT raised physically at the Cross.

The Second Birth gives you the quickening out of spiritual death. Something you seem to not attribute to those in the OT.

Those in Christ no longer face death spiritually nor physically. Once they leave Adam's corruptible physical body, they leave death behind and enter eternal life.

Dr. Riddlebarger is confused thinking there is still a future single resurrection. So still a futurist in application of his wrong interpretation of the first resurrection. What is this future physical resurrection, the second resurrection?

The first birth was physical, the first death is physical, and the first resurrection is physical.

The second birth is spiritual, the second death is spiritual separation in the LOF. The second resurrection would be out of the LOF.

This false teaching that the first resurrection equates to the second birth is not Scriptural, but human doctrine forced into the Scripture which sounds good, but not logical.

John 3:5-7

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (physical) and of the Spirit (spiritual), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh (physical) ; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (spiritual). Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

The physical birth comes first. One cannot be saved if one does not even exist.

Paul was speaking about being quickened spiritually. That is the second birth. Paul was speaking about being in heavenly places physically. That is the first resurrection.

Amil tend to dismiss this verse that starts the whole 5th chapter of 2 Corinthians, setting the theme:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."


When the soul of those in Christ leaves Adam's dead corruptible flesh, that soul immediately enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body. There is no eternal waiting for this body at some future resurrection. There is eternal enjoyment, because no one in Christ tastes death. The second birth ensures we leave death and enter life immediately.

Jesus was the Resurrection and the Life prior to the Cross. The Cross and Resurrection always being the moment God shows His love towards us, but the power was always there. Jesus is not the "someday there will be a future resurrection and a future life".

Amil is also steeped in human theology, with an emphasis on "human".

 

In what way do you think that your quoted verses support your Amill view? They speak of spiritual salvation for those that trust in Christ. This is not resurrection it is new birth/salvation.

If being saved equaled the first resurrection as you say then what Christ said here:
Mat_22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
makes not sense.

You claim that the Amill view is steeped in scripture so you should be able to provide clear scripture that supports your view.

 

The first resurrection was pointed to and somewhat defined throughout the entire NT. But it was only named in the 20th chapter of Revelation. Just like the term "trinity" or "second coming" not explicitly mentioned by those terms, the first resurrection has a specific meaning, but only named once in Scripture. One should not just change a term to suit their doctrine.

The first resurrection is not a symbolic term, even if found in Revelation, but the excuse is always that Revelation is entirely symbolic and one should not pick and choose what is or what is not literal. If something is explained would that not be a literal explanation?

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

That does not change much over a wide variety of translations.

First resurrection is found twice. Some want to say the first resurrection equates to:

"but the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

That may very well be another time there is a fist resurrection, depending on one's stance at a "second chance" or some like Amil claim a single future resurrection and then change their definition of first as merely spiritual while the next time it is physical, which is contradicting their own designated meaning. If a resurrection is only spiritual one time, then it has to be only spiritual the next time. A term does not change on people's whim.

The other interpretation is that there is a first resurrection as chronological implying a second resurrection after the thousand years.

The first resurrection is physical as given to those beheaded to whom the first resurrection applies. Those beheaded fall under the point:

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The first resurrection is not stated as spiritual nor physical explicitly in these verses and needs defined by other Scripture. But one cannot then define other Scripture using the term first resurrection just by declaring it. Saying a spiritual quickening is a first resurrection just because the name exists is not sound reasoning.

That would be called circular reasoning. Those beheaded are spiritually raised because of Ephesians 2, because Ephesians 2 is the first resurrection based on those beheaded in Revelation 20. Ephesians 2 gives us examples of both the physical and spiritual reality of being in Christ. One has to find more Scriptural references and also not dismiss Scripture that contradicts their point of view.