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Featured God's Children Are Redeemed Because They Are His Children

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by KenH, Jan 4, 2024.

  1. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Galatians 4:4-6 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

    There is an uncommon degree of beauty in the expression the fullness of time. No doubt a depth of wisdom in the appointment, wherefore at that period rather than any other. But, as in the meridian of the sun's fullness in the heavens, the glorious luminary of the day, throws his light, and warmth, with equal strength, to the Eastern and Western hemisphere: so Christ the Sun of righteousness, in the fullness of time, sheds all the blessed influences of his rising to his Church, in every direction, to comprehend the whole of his people, as well before as after his manifestation among men. And the merits and efficacy of his redemption, reacheth from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the earth. His blood, as from the high altar of his own divine nature descending, washeth away the sins of all his people. Reader! who shall calculate the infinite greatness of the work? Who shall form conceptions of the wisdom displayed in the arrangement of what is called the fullness of time?

    But while I beg the Reader duly to ponder these things, I request him at the same time not to overlook the cause assigned, for which God is said to have sent forth the Spirit of his Son into the hearts of his people. Because ye are sons. Not to make them sons: but because they are so: being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Not to give them a relationship by which they might become children, for this they had before. But being children, they might now have the grace to know it, and to act accordingly. Ephesians 1:4-5; Romans 8:29-30. Reader! do not forget to mark this distinction in suited characters!

    Men, untaught of the Holy Ghost, who know nothing of God's having chosen the Church in Christ; neither of Christ having married that Church, from the beginning; are easily led to invert the order of Scripture, and put that down as a cause, which is wholly an effect. Hence also, persons of this description are easily led to conclude, that the children of God were once children of the devil, and, as the phrase is, were heirs of hell, before they were called, by grace. But all this is, because they know not the Scriptures, neither the power of God. Blessed be God things are totally the reverse. God's children were always his children, and never heirs of hell, or children of the devil: being chosen in Christ, and given to Christ, before the foundation of the world. 2 Timothy 1:9; John 17:23. But in the present time-state of their being, born in the Adam-nature of a fallen race, they are all found when Christ comes to gather them, in the service of the devil, wearing his livery, doing his drudgery, and delighted in his work. All this totally differs from all relationship. For notwithstanding these things, when God, sends forth the Spirit of his Son into their hearts; and that revelation teacheth them they are sons of God; instantly they run out of Satan's kingdom; and cry unto God, Abba Father.

    And moreover, it is this sonship, and this everlasting relationship with Christ, for which all the blessings bestowed upon them during the whole of their time-state upon earth are given. Their redemption by Christ is not to make them sons, but they are redeemed because they are sons. Their regeneration by the Holy Ghost is not to make them children; but because they are children. This blessed scripture saith, and saith it with an emphasis not to be mistaken; because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying Abba Father. And the consequence of all this is, their covenant they had made with death is disannulled; and their agreement with hell cannot stand. They are no more servants; but discovered to be sons: they are no longer willing drudges to hell; but are found to be children of God, and as such, heirs of God through Christ. Isaiah 28:18. Reader! if the Lord the Holy Ghost be your teacher, you will see the preciousness of these things, and prize them accordingly. It may be you have heard the common phrase, of, children of the devil, and heirs of hell, when men have been speaking of God's children, and have been persuading in their way such to flee from the wrath to come. And so have I too, until I have trembled both at their ignorance and presumption. But had the Lord the Spirit been their Teacher, before they stood up in his service, they would have learnt this distinction, God's children, however rebellious children, were always, his children, and never for a moment heirs of hell. And those that are not God's children, but indeed heirs of hell, such they might have learnt from Christ himself, can never receive the truth, because they are so. For speaking of such, and to such, Jesus said, Why do ye not understand my speech? even, because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He that is of God heareth God's words. Ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. John 8:43-47.

    - excerpt from Robert Hawker's The Poor Man's Commentary on the Bible on Galatians 4:4-6

    (emphasis mine)
     
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  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Did Robert Hawker believe in evangelism and preaching the gospel to all?

    While I am a Reformed Baptist, I have recently come across some hypercalvinist pastors who never mention coming to faith and have no mission outreach. They believe in teaching the elect in church and any unsaved person will be brought to church by God where God will then reveal his salvation of them by virtue of verse by verse teaching. I think they are in violation of the Great Commission in Matthew 28.
     
  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    "In 1803, after twenty-five years at Charles, Hawker made his first preaching tour which lasted four weeks. Nowadays pastors seem happy to spend a month a year on holiday but Hawker never felt that such luxuries were necessary and preached twenty-five times on invitation during his month's leave of absence. The London ministers were glad to have Hawker at first as he filled all their pews and also the aisles. When, however, the doors were broken down by the sheer weight of the hundreds trying to get in and the masses outside caused a traffic chaos they began to fear Hawker was too much of a crowd-drawer for them. Notwithstanding, this Five-Point man whom many were calling an Antinomian and a Hyper-Calvinist received invitation after invitation to evangelise so that he had to plan a similar tour each year for the rest of his life. Yet modern critics of Hawker's doctrines invariably argue that such doctrines destroy evangelism! This is proof enough that such criticism is merely judgemental, and has no basis in true Christian experience. One tires nowadays of hearing the new, doctrinally wishy-washy, Reformed Establishment tell us that great preachers such as Tobias Crisp, Richard Davis, John Gill, John Ryland, James Hervey, William Romaine, Augustus Toplady, William Huntington, William Gadsby and, of course, Robert Hawker, believed doctrines that drive away the crowds, when history tells us that they were the very doctrines and the very people which drew them in their thousands."

    - excerpt from SGCB | The Poor Man's New Testament Commentary (solid-ground-books.com)
     
  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Did he preach to the saved in churches and just hoped the lost would walk in? Or did he preach on the highways and byways, like Whitefield, spreading the good news of Christ and His reconciliation with man via Jesus atoning sacrifice on the cross?

    The Reformed have historically been on the forefront of missionary work.
     
  5. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    First, God is the One in control of salvation(as He is ALL things). He has ordained when His chosen ones will hear the gospel. He has ordained where His chosen ones will hear the gospel. He has ordained whom His chosen ones will hear the gospel from. Humans are the vessels He uses, but He is the one guiding their steps. There is ABSOLUTELY NO POSSIBILITY that one of His chosen ones will fail to hear the gospel of Christ.

    Second, from what was written about Robert Hawker, people weren't just walking in but busting the doors down to get in to hear the true gospel of God's free and sovereign grace in Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16).
     
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Certainly God will save all whom God has given to Jesus. This truth does not negate the great commission of Matthew 28. Paul was relentless in seeking out the lost. The Reformed, historically, have been relentless in seeking out the lost. To abandon that relentless pursuit is to test God and fail to obey.

    I do not know the history of Robert Hawker. God may have been gracious in bringing people to him. But, that is not the norm. The norm is that we follow the parable of the wedding banquet and we go out into the highways and byways, pleading with people to come to the banquet and be reconciled to the King. This is our task. We lose our on God's blessing by telling God that we will not go while testing God to do it without our service.
     
  7. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I refer you to my post #3 above.
     
  8. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    "All this He does in His own time and way, yea, by instruments of His own appointing and preparing, as we have shown in our first head of discourse, nor will He work by any other. Moses cannot do Joshua's work; David cannot do Solomon's work, Paul cannot do Apollo's work, the one must plant and the other must water. There is a hackneyed phrase common among Christians, "God is not confined to means." This may be true with regard to means of man's arranging; but He has, in the sense I have mentioned, condescended to limit or confine Himself to the instruments or means of His own appointing. He said to Cyrus, "He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure." Hence no other man but Cyrus could do His work, because God had appointed him to liberate His people from Babylon. This fundamental principle is followed out in all the departments of nature, providence, and grace, especially in the work of the ministry. No other man could do dear old Dr. Hawker's work, Dr. Hawker could not do William Huntington's work, nor can any other man do mine. This should stimulate ministers, deacons, and all Christians to inquire, what is the work which God hath appointed me to do? And then to bestir themselves very zealously to the performance of it, in obedience to the sacred injunction, "Son, go work in my vineyard today." And if each would keep in his proper department, there would be no room for jealousies and animosities among the servants of God, but each would find room enough to employ all his powers, Paul planting and Apollos watering, and both content to be nothing, so that God may give the increase and receive all the glory. The conquests of sinner's hearts would extend, the comfort of the household of faith would increase, and the crown would flourish upon the head of our most glorious Christ, who is still going on from conquering to conquer, and must go on until the last elect vessel of mercy is vanquished by His grace, enlisted into His army, and made more than conqueror over all the enemies that once held him in captivity."

    - excerpt from a sermon preached by Joseph Irons at Grove Chapel in Camberwell on July 14, 1850, entitled, "Secure Property"
     
  9. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    How anyone can believe that this stuff is biblical, I will never understand. How anyone who believes this stuff is biblical and believes in God anyway is even more unbelievable. It's no wonder so many people think Christianity is crazy talk. I shutter to think how many people will spent eternity in Hell because they rejected the totally arbitrary version of God that Calvinists believe in.

    Don't you folks care anything at all about God's just character; His righteousness?
     
    #9 CJP69, Jan 5, 2024
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2024
  10. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    The only people who will be in Hell are those whom God reprobated before the world began. Just as the only people who will be in Heaven are those whom God chose and gave to His Son to be their Surety before the world began.

    I am quite aware that the natural man gnashes his teeth at the Biblical teaching of God doing what He will with His creatures and replies imprudently against God.

    And speaking of the righteousness of God, the apostle Paul dealt with that and the natural man's imprudent reply against God's sovereignty in Romans chapter 9:

    Romans 9:14-21 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
     
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  11. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    So you openly state that the god you worship is unjust. Nice.

    The bible doesn't teach anything remotely similar to what you just said. If it did, it would falsify itself. Ideas have consequences!

    The ninth chapter of Romans is speaking about the cutting off of Israel. It is quite clear that Paul is making a case that God cut off Israel and turned instead to the gentiles, and that God is justified in having done so. It will become equally clear that this is all that the chapter is about, and that it has nothing to do with predestination at all.

    It helps to see it if one looks at the introduction and summation of the chapter. In the first few verses it is clear that Paul is speaking of Israel and that he is upset by their condition of unbelief...
    Romans 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.​

    And then in the last few verses Paul sums up the point of what he's just been saying in the previous several verses...
    Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
    "Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
    And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."​

    Now, that by itself is probably enough to make it clear what Paul is talking about but what really nails it down is his reference in the body of the chapter to a couple of Old Testament passages, those being Jacob and Esau and then the Potter and the clay story.
    It's always a good idea to read any Old Testament passage that is quoted or made reference to in the New, in order to maintain the context of what's being said. (Remember the whole "Bible interpreting the Bible" thing.) So let's take a look at them so that we can be on the same page that Paul was on when he made these references. Doing so will undoubtedly shed additional light on the point he was making.

    Romans 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."​

    This is a direct quote from Malachi 1:2-3 but even the Malachi passage is not referencing the two boys themselves but the nations which came from them. I won't bother quoting it here but even a surface reading of Malachi 1 will confirm that it is talking about a nation not a person.
    Likewise, Paul is talking also about a nation. We can tell this for certain because of what is quoted just before in verse 12...
    Romans 9:12 "it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger.""​

    This is a direct quote from Genesis chapter 25 where it says explicitly that there are two nations in Rebecca's womb...
    Genesis 25:23 "And the LORD said to her: "Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger."​

    Additionally, even if it didn't explicitly state that it's talking about two nations we could still know for certain that it is anyway because Esau (the older) never served Jacob (the younger). That did not happen, ever.

    This passage is very clearly talking about nations and about how God deals with nations not about individuals or how God deals with individuals and Paul by referencing this material was making the exact same point. That's the reason why he referenced it.

    Now let's move on to the Potter and the clay story. It is on the same topic and is found in Jeremiah chapter 18...
    Jeremiah 18:1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 "Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause you to hear My words." 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
    5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.​

    Okay, that couldn't be any clearer! Jeremiah was making the very point that Paul is making! No wonder Paul referenced this passage, it applies directly to the subject he was dealing with! It IS the subject he was dealing with! Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18 are making the exact same point; they both use the same analogy for the same reasons. For all intent and purposes Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18 are the exact same chapter! The only difference is that in Romans 9 Paul is saying that the principle described in Jeremiah 18 has been carried out by God on the nation of Israel.

    Romans 9 is not about predestination at all. Paul didn't start talking about Israel and then suddenly change the subject to predestination and then just as suddenly change the subject back again to Israel. The whole chapter is on one issue and one issue only. That issue being God's absolute right to change His mind concerning His blessing of a nation that had done evil in His sight.

    It's no more complicated than that. In a nutshell, Paul was simply saying that Israel's promised kingdom wasn't coming because they had rejected the King and Romans 9 is all about how God was justified in having changed His mind about giving them that kingdom. That's all it's about; nothing more, nothing less.


     
    #11 CJP69, Jan 7, 2024
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2024
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  12. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    As I wrote, I am quite aware that the natural man gnashes his teeth at the Biblical teaching of God doing what He will with His creatures and replies imprudently against God.

    The natural man is quite happy with a false god of his own imagination who is like a genie in a bottle and grants him his wishes or who gets him out of jams. But when the natural man is confronted with the true God as revealed in God's Word to be His sovereign Creator who does what He purposes with His creatures, such as the example of Pharoah in Romans chapter 9, then the natural man hisses and yells at the top of his lungs, "We will not have this God to rule over us!" But as God says in His Word: "The Lord shall laugh at him: For he seeth that his day is coming." (Psalms 37:13)
     
  13. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    Romans 9 is the Calvinist's gold standard passage when it comes to propping up their idea of an arbitrary God and I just biblically demonstrated, and I mean absolutely proved it beyond any ability to refute, that Romans 9 has exactly nothing at all to do with predestination and the best you've got is to ignore it totally and simply repeat your position as though nothing was said.

    What are you doing here if all you're going to do is state your doctrine and then just repeat yourself when someone presents an actual argument that demonstrates your misuse of scripture? How boring is your life, if that's what you do for a hobby!
     
  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Paul covers your 'natural complaints' in Ro 9.

    Yes it does.

    No it isn't, v 24, and Ro 9 is ultimately about unconditional election, v 11, "not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles".
     
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  15. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    You have failed to present an argument that refutes the teaching of the Holy Scriptures.
     
  16. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    Read the thread please. I've proven that it does no such thing.

    Saying it doesn't make it so. I've made an argument. Your failing to read it, or ignoring it if you did read it, and then showing up here to repeat your position, doesn't count as a rebuttal.

    I've demonstrated that this is not so.
     
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  17. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    I've presented an argument that establishes the teaching of the Holy Scriptures in contradiction to your doctrine.

    I know that this sort of mindless repetition is all you've got when it comes to rebuttal and so for the sake of those who might be reading this exchange, this is where I give you a third and final opportunity to respond substantively to the argument presented. Anything short of that will be taken by this poster as proof that you simply believe what you've been taught to believe and don't care about whether it makes any sense and are completely incapable of establishing a thing you say.
     
  18. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    "God has reprobated as well as chosen. Taken by itself, reprobation is the decree of God in which He has determined, as sovereignly as in election, that some individuals should not enter eternal glory, but are destined for destruction. Thus it should be expressed. I realize it seems milder to say that God decided to leave others in their sins and ruin. ...

    Yet, as a matter of fact, this is not a milder way of expressing it. We may close our eyes to the problem and refuse to seek an answer, but the problem remains. The question inevitably arises, How did these people fall into the sin in which God permitted them to lie? Another question also arises, Why did God leave them in this sin and misery when He could have saved them? I fully realize that all questions cannot possibly be answered. Nevertheless, it is also true that by closing our eyes to the problems that arise we fail to find a solution.

    Besides, Scripture certainly teaches more. The Potter does with the clay as He pleases, and no one can deny Him the right to form of one lump of clay a vessel unto honor and of another a vessel unto dishonor. Surely, here we are taught more than that God permits something to lie where it has fallen. The vessels unto dishonor are also made by Him in accordance with His appointment. Therefore, we would rather say that reprobation is that decree of God by which He sovereignly destined some to destruction. For, certainly, the condemnation shall be on the basis of the sin and guilt of the reprobate, but never as if this reprobation rests on foreseen sin. Reprobation, even as election, is entirely, sovereignly free.

    At present, however, we are not so much concerned about reprobation as such, but rather about its relation to election. The question is, What is the relation of the former to the latter? Or rather, the more weighty question, Why did God reprobate? You say: To the glorification of His name. Correct. We agree. God the Lord has wrought all things for His own sake, even the wicked to the day of evil. We grant that. But the question arises: Is God the Lord glorified to a greater extent by having reprobated some, rather than if He had saved all? Granted that the damnation of the reprobate glorifies Him eternally, would His honor not have been greater if He had saved all? Again you say, No, because then His righteous indignation would never have been revealed. But is that true? We agree, of course, that in the destruction of the reprobate God reveals His righteous anger and is thereby glorified. Was that anger not sufficiently revealed in the suffering of Christ?

    Every time the same question confronts us: Why has God reprobated some? To find an answer to this we must place ourselves before the question: What is the relation of election to reprobation?"

    - rest at The Place of Reprobation in the Preaching of the Gospel (prca.org)
     
  19. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    Copy/Pasting someone else's work which not only doesn't address at all the entirely biblical arguments I've made but amounts to nothing at all other than repeating your position DOES NOT count as a rebuttal.

    You're completely wasting your time, Ken. Is this the sort of thing that you think is an enjoyable hobby? Showing up on an essentially anonymous website where you can't even be bothered to write your posts in your own words and instead copy/paste other people's work in support of a doctrine that a handful of people who mostly already agree with you might or might not ever read. That comes off as fun to you?

    That sounds like the most boring waste of time I can imagine! Why not engage your own mind and make an argument? What could possibly be the downside to such an endeavor? If your doctrine is true, you get to make people like me look like fools and if it's wrong, you get to move away from error. Where's the down side?

    Not that I don't know the answer to that question.

    It's because you know already that there is no answer to the arguments presented against your doctrine but don't care.

    I would care about that! That would keep me awake at night, Ken. If I taught that the god that I've trusted my eternal soul too was completely arbitrary and that I had no real way of telling for certain that I happened to be one of the lucky few who had won his cosmic salvation lottery and that one of my favorite supporting arguments for this teaching was just crushed to powder by a simple argument that any third grade home-schooled child could read and understand. I'd be worried about that. I'd be a lot worried about that.

    I mean, you should at least try to familiarize yourself with the opposing arguments, right? Have you ever bothered to read anything by someone whom you didn't already know you agreed with? Is it that you just believe that God predestined me to show up here and make an argument that neither you, nor anyone you know, nor anyone you've ever read has any ability to deal with?
     
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Listen to yourself please:

    ...i.e. Is there unrighteousness with God? - v 14

    Holy Spirit's reply to your 'natural complaint' through Paul:

    God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. -v 15

    It is so. But you brought up Ro 9, and that's what we'll discuss for now.

    A very poor one so far.

    No, you haven't.
     
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