On "Throwing Your Vote Away"

[MrW]

Carter is Southern Baptist…

…So no, Mormons are not saved. Why do you ask?

Because, they say they are.

And if the man says he is, you take him at his word.

 

[JonC]

"We have, first, the Church admonished, in their calling on the Father to keep in remembrance, in all their approaches to the throne, their safety and security in Christ in whom God beholds the Church, and accepts the Church, as freely, fully, and everlastingly justified in Christ; and as holy in Christ, without blame before him in love. And though the Father, without respect of persons, as they are in themselves, and considered without an eye to Chris t, judged according to every man's work; yet the chosen in Christ by the Father is a personal thing; and God hath respect to his dear Son, and views the persons of his redeemed in Him. Yea, Christ himself was fore-ordained for this express end, and set forth by the Father, a propitiation through faith in his blood. Pass, therefore, saith the Apostle, the time of your sojourning here in fear, that is, not in the bondage fear of servants, but the dutiful fear of children."

- excerpt from Robert Hawker's commentary on 1 Peter 1:17-25

Also, the apostle Paul states that Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

We also read what Isaiah wrote in Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

Do God's elect do good works? Yes! But they cannot claim them as their own nor do they accrue merit for them. Why not? Because - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I am specifically asking about the passage in Peter that states those who call God "Father" and have been redeemed by Christ's blood will be impartially judged by God according to their work.

I agree that we have been saved to do good works. I agree with all of the passages you have mentioned.

I am asking about your objection to one passage.

 

[KenH]

I am specifically asking why you believe Scripture stated that those who have been redeemed by the blood of Christ, those who call God "Father", will be impartially judged by God according to their works if it is false.

It is good for God's elect children to be reminded of the failed attempts by those who are lost to attain to a righteousness of their own(as before regeneration they were failing at doing so, as well), as Paul pointed out those of the Jews who had a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge, and tried to establish their own righteousness, as they were ignorant of the righteousness of God. See Romans 10:2-3.

Thus, God's elect, knowing that God judges works impartially, and that they could never, ever, be saved by their works(Isaiah 64:6 All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.) (Galatians 2:16 For by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.), are reminded that it is only by Christ Jesus' blood that they have been redeemed.

If God were to judge me based on any of my efforts, I would be cast into hell. That time I spent in prayer this morning - there was nothing the least bit meritorious in it, it was not perfect and pure and holy, not even close - compared to the holiness of God, my prayer was filthy. But, that's not the end of the story for my sorry excuse of a prayer:

Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Psalms 66:19-20 But verily God hath heard me;
He hath attended to the voice of my prayer.
Blessed be God, which hath not turned away my prayer,
Nor his mercy from me.

 

[canadyjd]

You will not find it. The Bible was written primarily in Hebrew and Greek.

There are verses stating that a man is judged by his fruit, that God will judge peoples works, and that Christians are not to associate with wicked men professing Christ.

Saying that Christians judge by ones fruit is not a verse but a summary.

Galatians 5 tells us the fruits of the Spirit, and that Christians walk in the Spirit (to walk in the flesh is death).

Use your discernment.

You present a church that has to accept the wicked if the wicked profess Christ. I believe that attitude again nat church discipline is wrong.

Christians need to stand against sin, against evil. We can't do that if we accept sin when accompanied by a profession of faith.

I appreciate you admitting there are no passages that state Christians is identified by their fruit, which makes your statement false.

Your statement that I present a church that must accept the wicked if they profess Christ is also false and off topic.

This OP isn’t about the church accepting the wicked. The question was which POTUS candidate has ever deserved Christian votes.

I’ve made my opinion known. I don’t see the need to chase rabbits into nonsensical off topic rabbit holes.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

When it comes to voting, we know that few people are regenerated(Matthew 7:13-14), regardless of how many people identify as being a "Christian".

Therefore, when it comes to voting, the odds are low that anyone has ever or will ever vote for someone who has been regenerated.

Well, there is a lot of truth to that. It takes a certain type of person to be a career politician.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Because, they say they are.

And if the man says he is, you take him at his word.

I know they do not profess the same Jesus as we do. Therefore, I know they cannot be saved based on their profession of faith.

If I didn’t know what they believed, other than they professed Christ as Savior, then I would take them at their word.

You seem to dismiss Carter’s profession of faith based in his politics.

That is a very different view from mine.

peace to you

 

[KenH]

Well, there is a lot of truth to that. It takes a certain type of person to be a career politician.

Peace to you

Well, consider, how few people have been regenerated compared to the total population. Then, consider, how few people run for public office compared to the total population. Thus, a regenerated person running for public office would be a subset of a subset of the total population.

 

[JonC]

It is good for God's elect children to be reminded of the failed attempts by those who are lost to attain to a righteousness of their own(as before regeneration they were failing at doing so, as well), as Paul pointed out those of the Jews who had a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge, and tried to establish their own righteousness, as they were ignorant of the righteousness of God. See Romans 10:2-3.

Thus, God's elect, knowing that God judges works impartially, and that they could never, ever, be saved by their works(Isaiah 64:6 All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.) (Galatians 2:16 For by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.), are reminded that it is only by Christ Jesus' blood that they have been redeemed.

If God were to judge me based on any of my efforts, I would be cast into hell. That time I spent in prayer this morning - there was nothing the least bit meritorious in it, it was not perfect and pure and holy, not even close - compared to the holiness of God, my prayer was filthy. But, that's not the end of the story for my sorry excuse of a prayer:

Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Psalms 66:19-20 But verily God hath heard me;
He hath attended to the voice of my prayer.
Blessed be God, which hath not turned away my prayer,
Nor his mercy from me.

Again...I am strictly speaking of one passage which claims that those who call God "Father" and have been redeemed by the previous blood of Christ WILL be judged impartially by God for their works.

Either that verse is true or it is false. You post that the passage is false.

That leads to another issue - IF one passage of Scripture is false then how can we rely on any of it?

 

[JonC]

I appreciate you admitting there are no passages that state Christians is identified by their fruit, which makes your statement false.

Your statement that I present a church that must accept the wicked if they profess Christ is also false and off topic.

This OP isn’t about the church accepting the wicked. The question was which POTUS candidate has ever deserved Christian votes.

I’ve made my opinion known. I don’t see the need to chase rabbits into nonsensical off topic rabbit holes.

Peace to you

No, it does not make my statement false.

Scripture does not state Christian judge one another by their fruit. BUT Scripture does state that Christians judge one another by their fruit.

The difference is the "that". Without it we would be looking for a quote, but with it we are looking for a teaching.


If a member of your church embraces a homosexual lifestyle while professing Christ then he is to be confronted for the sin, and if he doesn't repent he is to be cast from the congregation....even though he continues to process Christ.

There are two reasons given in the Bible for this.

First, it is in hopes that the man will repent and be restored to the fold.

Second, it guards the congregation against sin.


Your idea of welcoming sin into a congregation as long as the person confesses Christ is unbiblical.

 

[KenH]

You post that the passage is false.

I did no such thing.

Jon, you are not understanding me. Please notice verse 17: "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear."

Just as "all" in the Bible does not always mean every person in the world, and just as "world" in the Bible does not always mean every person in the world", after the "," following the word, "Father", one must determine who is the "every man" whose works God judges.

We know He has already judged His elect at the cross when Christ died for the sheep, God's elect, chosen by Him before the world began. So whoever the "every man" is cannot be God's elect after the Holy Spirit has regenerated them. Therefore, the "every man" must be the reprobates and also God's elect before the Holy Spirit regenerates; as even though the standing of God's elect before God was determined before the world began, they come into this world in Adam so that they are in the same state as the reprobates, and then their state changes when the Holy Spirit regenerates and they become a new creature in Christ:

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[JonC]

I did no such thing.

Jon, you are not understanding me. Please notice verse 17: "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear."

Just as "all" in the Bible does not always mean every person in the world, and just as "world" in the Bible does not always mean every person in the world", after the "," following the word, "Father", one must determine who is the "every man" whose works God judges.

We know He has already judged His elect at the cross when Christ died for the sheep, God's elect, chosen by Him before the world began. So whoever the "every man" is cannot be God's elect after the Holy Spirit has regenerated them. Therefore, the "every man" must be the reprobates and also God's elect before the Holy Spirit regenerates; as even though the standing of God's elect before God was determined before the world began, they come into this world in Adam so that they are in the same state as the reprobates, and then their state changes when the Holy Spirit regenerates and they become a new creature in Christ:

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

I must have misunderstood what you are saying about that passage. My apologies.

For my correction -

Are you saying that those who have been redeemed, those who call God "Father", will be impartially judged by God for their works?

I am trying to understand your position.

Of those Peter that Peter states will be judged impartially by God for their works he gives several descriptions.

They are redeemed by the previous blood of Christ.
They call God "Father".
They reside as aliens.
They were chosen by the foreknowledge of God.
They have been "born again".
They have been sanctified by the Spirit.

And Peter tells them that they will be judged according to their works.


Now....are you saying that there are multiple groups of born again, redeemed, chosen, sanctified people and some will be judged?

Are you equating this judgment to the judgment of the lost?

 

[JonC]

@KenH

Here is the passage I was speaking of, and I'll bold the description of Peter's audience as well as his instructions:

1 Peter 1:1–19
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
16 because it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;
18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,
19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.


I do not see this second group of redeemed people to whom you indicate Peter's words apply.

 

[KenH]

Now....are you saying that there are multiple groups of born again, redeemed, chosen, sanctified people and some will be judged?

God's elect were judged in Christ at the cross. They face no further judgment.

The reprobate, since Christ did not live and die as their Surety, have only their filthy rags works to stand on in the judgment.

 

[MrW]

I know they do not profess the same Jesus as we do. Therefore, I know they cannot be saved based on their profession of faith.

If I didn’t know what they believed, other than they professed Christ as Savior, then I would take them at their word.

You seem to dismiss Carter’s profession of faith based in his politics.

That is a very different view from mine.

peace to you

I absolutely believe if a person is born again, it will surely affect their politics.

All Christians should have a Biblical worldview.

 

[KenH]

I absolutely believe if a person is born again, it will surely affect their politics.

I think there are limits as to how much one can use the Bible as a guide to determine one's political philosophy on the subject of the size, scope, and reach of government. I am not saying there is no guidance that can be had on the subject of government(such as Romans 13:1-7), but there is only one gospel of Christ and all others are false gospels. There is not only one view concerning the size, scope, and reach of government that negates all other views as being false views.

 

[JonC]

God's elect were judged in Christ at the cross. They face no further judgment.

The reprobate, since Christ did not live and die as their Surety, have only their filthy rags works to stand on in the judgment.

Again...I am not asking for your theology. I am asking if you believe 1 Peter chapter 1 is true as it is written.


Here is the passage I was speaking of, and I'll bold the description of Peter's audience as well as his instructions:

1 Peter 1:1–19
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
16 because it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;
18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,
19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.


Do you believe that those people really will be judged impartially according to their works?

If not, then why do you believe Peter said that they would?

 

[KenH]

I am asking if you believe 1 Peter chapter 1 is true as it is written.

Yes, I do.

 

[KenH]

Do you believe that those people really will be judged impartially according to their works?

If not, then why do you believe Peter said that they would?

I have already said what I said about 1 Peter 1:17-18. I don't know how else to say it.

 

[JonC]

Yes, I do.

Good. I think we can agree there - those who have been "born again", who are redeemed by the previous blood of Christ, will be judged according to their work and therefore should conduct their lives in "fear" (I would say a fear of doing wrong....a healthy fear).

 

[KenH]

- those who have been "born again", who are redeemed by the previous blood of Christ, will be judged according to their work

Nope. All of God's elect were judged at the cross of Christ; Christ is their Surety Who paid the debt for ALL of their sins.