Featured Romans 9:11, A calling, not one's works, precedes the election.

It is not fore knowing what relationship would occur in the future. God has known (in a relationship) the elect from the beginning of creation.

peace to you

 

Look I gave you a clear scripture that puts election prior to calling of the Gospel and you flat out dont believe it.

 

It doesn't make sense for folk to say show me scripture and when it is shown they don't believe it. The they come up with a million reasons why it doesn't mean what it said

 

Please that's what folk say when someone shows them a scripture that showed them wrong. That's why I don't waste a lot of time answering and explaining

 

My point is that the Romans passage makes sense only in a strict Jewish context as it applies to prophecy and history and rightly understanding both. It took a slightly longer post to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. Sorry for extending past a one line opinion. .

37818 said: ↑
A calling, not one:s works are to precede one's election.

MLV, Romans 9:11, . . . for* the children were not yet born, nor had practiced anything good or evil, in-order-that the purpose of God according-to his choice might abide, not from works, but from the one who is calling.

God the Father elects the second born. I could have used that brief but I would have provided no proof and what good would that have done.

 

I have always been curious why God would call (and save?) a soul
and then say, "you know what?, I now choose you and elect you"(???)

What is God supposed to be saying, as to why He would be doing that?

Like;
"Now that you are saved, I certainly want to be sure and choose you"(???)

So, you are saying that it is "His choice", or "election"
that God chooses or elects to make, after the individual is called (and saved?)
which is being spoken of as being "the purpose of God" so it "might abide"?

Then is God saying here, "Now that you have been called (and saved?),
I want the Purpose of God to abide and remain, therefore,
to that end, I choose and elect you, so that My Purpose will stand"?

If so, what Purpose is God saying He has, for choosing or electing someone,
after they are called (and saved?)?
...

You make an(other) Enormously Vital and Mayor, Mayor Point!!

Romans 8:30 may very well be going to Great Painstaking Lengths
as truly presenting God's "order", logically AND chronologically,
of exactly How He Saves souls, from His perspective,
Eternity Past to Eternity Future.

And He ought to Know.

Now, provided that it is true that God is specifically stating
"The Order of Events", when using those Great Painstaking Lengths,
shown here:

29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified"*

it would have to assumed, as a Rule of Interpretation
that the following is represented consistently throughout the Bible.

As a Rule of Interpretation are we to always be assured that:

"Everytime various subject matter is listed,
one after the other, in a verse,
THEY ARE ALWAYS GIVEN IN LOGICAL AND CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER."

Is that "a Fact of God"?

Try to prove it up.

Or, to just cut to the chase: it won't happen.

Indiscriminate "orderings" and illogical
and non-chronological listing of events
are plentiful and abundant.

Think of all of the seemingly haphazard, almost, "disordered"
chapters, verses and BOOKS, much less with any given words in a verse.

So, apparently, when reciting various sentences that include different events,
1.) they are not inherently presented to us in an infallible sequence of events,
2.) Nor does the Bible have any intentions of doing so, in the least.

And, in conclusion of all that, what does that do to all of the verses
that may be cited "to prove and confirm" from them an "order" of events?

They are rendered entirely irrelevant and useless, on their face.

Why?

The "order" listed is never to be considered to be absolutely chronological
and other comparisons with Spiritual Things in scripture must be included
to make determinations regarding the "Order of Events" in Spiritual Realities.

Even in Romans 9:11, 2 Thessalonians 2:13,14?, etc.,

& especially, 2 Peter 1:10?;

"Wherefore the rather, brethren,
give diligence to make your calling and election sure:
for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"

& Acts 13:48?, etc.???,

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad,
and glorified the word of the Lord:
and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Yes, yes, yes. Of course, of course, of course.

To assume that a specific ordering of words may FORM DOCTRINE,
is not "a thing", concerning the interpretation of Bible content.

It is a dead issue.

Null and Void.

Totally unreliable.

*(with "glorified" there being the indication
that this presentation is given to us,
as being viewed from God's Eternal Perspective.)
...

And, now that we are on the subject, may I ask,

If we were still concerned about going back into some of the above verses,
what would happen if we were to designate those chosen or elected
in those verses, as being "them who are the called"?

Romans 8:28 does.

28 "And we know that all things work together for good
to them that love God, to them
who are the called according to his purpose."

"the called" it says.

Those chosen, or elected, are them who are "the called".

How does that sit with you all?
...

"Many are called" and Commanded to Repent and Believe the Gospel
in the General, OUTWARD, External Call, (which is ALWAYS 100% INEFFECTIVE),

"but few are" Spiritually Enabled by Irresistible Grace,
which results in a Specific, INWARD, Irresistible Call into the soul
(which is ALWAYS 100% EFFECTIVE) for the lost soul to hear the Gospel,

and to be Given and Granted Repentance and Faith
by the New Birth of being BORN AGAIN, and there upon
giving confirmation that although they had been a Totally Depraved sinner,
God Almighty in His Mercy had Unconditionally Elected, i.e., "chosen" them,
to Receive and Experience Eternal Salvation, that took place from Eternity Past,
within the Counsel Halls of the Triune Godhead.

That Worships God.

And there is a LOT to be said for whether our interpretation Worships God,
or man and by way of indirect devotion, Satan.

It is of Eternal Significance.

 

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...m+Weighed+and+Found+Wanting_George+Bryson.pdf

In this fellow's introduction, he puts it out there:

"Just as Calvinists can and do understand non-Calvinistic systems of theology without embracing them, so nonCalvinists, such as myself, can understand Calvinism and still reject it as unbiblical."

I didn't have two cents worth of confidence in that statement,
then in the "REFUTED" section, he immediately blows it, first thing.

Surprise, surprise.

(His words in red, below, and mine are in blue.)

from:

CHAPTER 6 >CALVINISTIC TOTAL DEPRAVITY REFUTED.

"By way of review, keep in mind that Calvinistic Depravity
is not so much a matter of how depraved the unregenerate are..."

NOOOOOOO.

HOLD ON! FULL STOP. IT'S OVER. JUST LIKE THAT.

This is tantamount to an Infinantly Fatal Mistake and Error.

And a complete impeachment of his initial claim,
"nonCalvinists, such as myself, can understand Calvinism."

Negative on "nonCalvinists" "can understand Calvinism."

I've never heard of a "nonCalvinists" giving a Biblical definition
of Total Depravity and he sure didn't, so we'll just leave that there.

The correct, Biblical, statement would be,

"By way of review, keep in mind that Calvinistic Depravity
is" ABSOLUTELY, ENTIRELY "a matter
of how depraved the unregenerate are..."

So, it was truly over for him, within the first couple of words.

No way. There is no reasonability in assuming he could ever get it.

Not happening. Impossible.

Wrong programming.

So, let's just skip to:

"Everyone Who Believes."

(under the heading:
CHAPTER 6 >CALVINISTIC TOTAL DEPRAVITY REFUTED.

This is an excerpt:

"Although the Calvinist says that Faith comes by regeneration,

"Paul says that:

"1. Faith comes by hearing.

"2. Hearing comes by the Word of God.

"3. The Word of God comes when someone proclaims it.

"4. Someone proclaims the Word of God when they are sent to do so.

"Thus those who call upon the name of the Lord (and are thereby saved)
call upon Him in Faith.

"They call upon Him in faith
as a result of believing the Gospel preached to them.

"It is that simple".
...

con't

To see something completely different,
we take a look at a complete
and totally opposite version of his list, in reverse,
in order to give the proper Biblical Order:

 

And then, for something completely different,
let's take a look at a complete
and totally opposite version of his list, in reverse,
in order to give the proper Biblical Order:

A.) 4. Someone proclaims the Word of God
when they are sent to do so.

B.) 3. The Word of God comes when someone proclaims it.

C.) 2. Hearing comes by the Word of God.

D.) 1. Faith comes by hearing.

First: A.) 4. Someone proclaims the Word of God
when they are sent to do so.

Someone proclaims the Word of God,

Then, B.) 3. The Word of God comes when someone proclaims it.

(with The Law preached regarding their sin,
so the Holy Spirit can bring Conviction;

and The Gospel of Jesus Christ is preached, from the Word,
for the Holy Spirit to Grant them Repentance of their sin
that they are now Convicted of
and Faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus,
in the New Birth.)

When someone proclaims The Law regarding their sin,
so the Holy Spirit can bring Conviction,
contained in the Word of God
in Romans 3:9-20, for example;

9 "What then? are we better than they?
No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles,
that they are all under sin;

10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 "There is none that understandeth,
there is none that seeketh after God.

12 "They are all gone out of the way,
they are together become unprofitable;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 "Their throat is an open sepulchre;
with their tongues they have used deceit;
the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 "Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 "And the way of peace have they not known:

18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith,
it saith to them who are under the law:
that every mouth may be stopped,
and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law
there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:
for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Next: C.) 2. Hearing comes by the Word of God.

(And as someone who preaches the Law, from the Word of God,
also proclaims The Gospel of Jesus Christ,
for the Holy Spirit to Grant them Repentance of their sin
that they are now Convicted of
and Faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus,
in the New Birth.)

as a result of BEING BORN AGAIN
AND THE SINNER HAVING BEEN GIVEN REPENTANCE OF THEIR SINS

AND FAITH THAT IS SAVINGLY SPIRITUAL FAITH
WHICH ENABLES THEM TO HAVE THE SPIRITUAL ABILITY OF THEN
SPIRITUALLY: "believing the Gospel preached to them".

And finally, D.) 1. Faith comes by hearing.

AFTER HAVING BEEN SPIRITUALLY BEEN GIVEN SAVING FAITH

"those who call upon the Name of the Lord",

WHO IS NOW ALREADY THEIR LORD, THEIR SAVIOR,
IN ORDER FOR THEM TO CALL HIM LORD.

"(and are thereby"

GIVING EVIDENCE
THAT THEY HAVE BEEN SPIRITUALLY "saved")

"call upon Him in Faith",

(THAT FAITH GIVEN IN THE NEW BIRTH).

"They call upon Him in faith."

WHICH IS THE VERY REASON WHY SPIRITUAL FAITH,
AS A SPIRITUAL CONNECTING POINT AND CAPABILITY

(WHEN SPIRITUALLY DEAD THEY DID NOT PREVIOUSLY POSSESS ),

WAS GIVEN TO THEM,
ENABLING THEM TO COMMUNICATE
SPIRITUALLY WITH GOD WHO IS SPIRIT.)

"It is that simple."
...

 

I do understand that I do not understand what someone
could possibly mean by saying,
"election is between their works or God's calling",
or where anything like that could possibly have come from.

Got me. Not that that is unusual for us.

As far as Romans 9:11, I know it sits within a chapter context,
as well as a wonderfully harmonious Book, Testament and Bible context.

I give it within a comprehensive introduction outline, below, that is RICH.
...

Then, we have the Glorious Bible revelations from Romans 9:

"Paul had been talking just prior to Romans 9:11,

"by distinguishing between Israel and Israel, or the elect of God among them,
and those that were not;

"wherefore though the latter were rejected according to the purpose of God, the promise and preaching of the word had their effect in the former, Romans 9:6, and that there was such a distinction, he proves from the two sons of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael, who were both Abraham's seed;

"yet one was a child of promise, and the other a child of the flesh, and were emblematical of the children of the promise, and the children of the flesh among that people; Romans 9:7,

"and further confirms this by the instance of Jacob and Esau,
who were born of the same parents, and were twins;

"and yet one was in the favour of God, and the other not;

"and that this was owing not to works,
but to the sovereign will of God in election, he proves by observing that this was before good or evil were done by either of them, Romans 9:11,

"and that this was notified to Rebekah before, Romans 9:12, as appears from a passage in Genesis 25:23, and by another passage in Malachi 1:2, which is cited, Romans 9:13, then an objection is started, Romans 9:14,

"that if God loves one, and hates another, both being in equal circumstances, as Jacob and Esau were, he must be guilty of unrighteousness;

"which he answers and removes, first by a detestation of such a charge against God, and then by producing testimonies out of the books of Moses, proving both election and reprobation*, as being not of the works of men, but of the will of God; the former of these he proves, Romans 9:15, from Exodus 33:19,

"by which it appears, that the choice of men to salvation is not according to the will of man, but according to the grace and love of God, Romans 9:16,

"the latter he proves by the case of Pharaoh, Romans 9:17, and the Scripture relating to that, Exodus 9:16, and from both testimonies concludes, Romans 9:18, that God's having mercy on one, and hardening* another, are according to his sovereign will and pleasure;

"then another objection rises, up, if so, God has no reason to find fault with men that are hardened* in sin, since they are according to his will, and in sinning do but fulfil it, and which no man resists;

"and this objection is formed in a very pert and sneering manner, and insinuates that God is cruel and acts unreasonably, Romans 9:19, to which he answers, by putting the objector in mind that he was a man, a mere creature that started it, and that it was God against whom it was made;

"and by observing the folly and madness of replying against God, and the absurdity of such a procedure, taken from the consideration of the one being a creature, and the other the Creator, Romans 9:20, and by instancing in the case of the potter, who has power over his clay, to form it in what shape, and for what use he pleases, Romans 9:21,

"and accommodates this, both to the affair of election and reprobation*, and to the business of the latter first, Romans 9:22, where he observes the end of God in it to show forth his power and wrath, and describes the subjects of it, which clears him from injustice, and points at the patience of God towards them, which frees him from the charge of cruelty, Romans 9:22,

"and then proceeds to apply the metaphor before used, to the objects of election styled vessels of mercy, and the end of the Lord to manifest the riches of his glory in them, and the method he takes to bring them to eternal happiness, by preparing them for it by grace, Romans 9:23, which is done in the effectual calling, the objects of which are both Jews and Gentiles, Romans 9:24.

"That it is the will of God that the Gentiles should be called, he proves, Romans 9:25, from some passages in Hosea, Hosea 2:23, and that God had chosen, and so would call some among the Jews, he clearly makes appear, Romans 9:27,

"from some prophecies of Isaiah, Isaiah 10:22, and then he concludes the chapter by observing the free and distinguishing grace of God, in the calling of the Gentiles, and the justification of them by the righteousness of Christ..."

From: Romans 9 Gill's Exposition

* (& Don't let this note distract you, but I thought I might mention
something about it: "Reprobation" here refers to a "Negative Determination"
that God chooses to make, when God has Degreed to leave some in sin
where they were, to start with.

That is, God does "make a Decree", or decision, but it does not have
an immediate, "I INTEND to kill you, NOW", or "Positive Determination",
like, "I am the one Who is Appointing you to Hell".

But, as a "Negative Determination", God expresses His intention as if to say,
"I see where you are, as a natural born sinner,
and I am making the Executive Decision to leave you where you want to be."

And this is also what is meant by, "whom He will, He hardeneth" 9:18,
= when He sees the lost sinner is in a state of Spiritual darkness and
by "He hardeneth" it means that God gives them up to
CONTINUE in MORE DARKNESS,
if that kind of thing sound right to be possible, which apparently it is.)

 

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Foreknowledge is election, then he gave them to his Son... In giving them to his Son they were predestinated and being predestinated he calls them in time because the Son justified them at Calvary and when they die the spirit goes back to God who gave it... And when Lord comes again they are resurrected and glorified... 37818, they are not called by anything they did, you can't call a dead man... Brother Glen

Btw... You brethren if you would stop changing the text then you would understand it... Standing in election means you already have it, same as standing in doctrine... The OP starts out with the wrong scenario and the text does not back it up... That's what happens you mess with Gods' word

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth... You were elected before Adam and Eve sinned, you are made alive or called in time... Quit putting the cart before the horse!

 

I can certainly see that.

"Romans 9:11, A calling, not one's works, precedes the election."

True.

8:28; "And we know that all things work together for good
to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

There isn't any other way to view
"whom He foreknew, He also did predestinate",
than that "whom", here in 8:29 and "the called" from 8:28, are the "elect".

The "elect" "whom" are "the called", that God "foreknew" and "predestinated".

 

This verse taken out of context has been divorced from its intended purpose. The calling was to service not salvation per the surrounding context:

For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.”
Rom 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
Rom 9:12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”