Concerning Romans 9:16

[canadyjd]

Romans 9 is about God's sovereign choice to include the Gentiles in and to exclude non believing Jews. Romans 9 cannot be divorced from the rest of the book just because we have placed chapter divisions. The context of Romans 9 needs to be understood by the context of the entire book.

I agree. The context includes God deliberately creating two types of vessels… one type for wrath; one type for mercy.

Paul gives the examples of God choosing Jacob instead of Esau before they were born… the older will serve the younger. He gives the example of Pharaoh… for this very reason… He created Pharaoh to demonstrate His glory.

It is all about God’s sovereign choice to show mercy and compassion to whoever He pleases… “even us”, as Paul states, who are vessels of mercy that demonstrate the riches of God’s glory.

The context includes the truth that election comes before faith.

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

None of these usages alter the fact, people are chosen for salvation by being set apart in Christ based on God crediting their faith in the truth as righteousness

Only after the sinner repents of their sins and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and the Gospel concerning Him

"election to salvation" based on "faith alone", is a "reformed" teaching that is based on their "teachings", and has no Bible foundation!

 

[Silverhair]

I have repeated focused in Romans 9 to support my beliefs.

Let’s attempt to focus on the passages instead of personal attacks.

If you can’t focus on the passages, I would appreciate it if you would go away so that those who desire genuine dialog can do so.

peace to you

Yes I know you keep saying that Romans 9 supports your beliefs but you have not shown any verses that actually do that. Using a shotgun approach does not help.

You keep saying "Election comes before faith" I asked you to give a clear definition of what you mean by the word "election". I only asked as we have seen instances of calvinists adding their own meaning to words. So clarity on your part would help.

 

[canadyjd]

I focused on Romans 9 to support my beliefs. I focused on specific verses and explained in detail why they support my beliefs.

You do not have to agree with me. But to claim I have not supported my beliefs with scripture is intellectually dishonest.

I have explained my view of “election” as God choosing, in His sovereignty, who will be vessels of wrath and who will be vessels of mercy. The passages in Romans 9 go further and specially teach God creates those folks as a potter molds clay for those specific purposes.

Election is God’s sovereign choice of who will be vessels of wrath and who will be vessels of mercy. Since God creates them for that specific purpose, election is prior to faith.

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

I focused on Romans 9 to support my beliefs. I focused on specific verses and explained in detail why they support my beliefs.

You do not have to agree with me. But to claim I have not supported my beliefs with scripture is intellectually dishonest.

I have explained my view of “election” as God choosing, in His sovereignty, who will be vessels of wrath and who will be vessels of mercy. The passages in Romans 9 go further and specially teach God creates those folks as a potter molds clay for those specific purposes.

Election is God’s sovereign choice of who will be vessels of wrath and who will be vessels of mercy. Since God creates them for that specific purpose, election is prior to faith.

peace to you

So God created certain people to be vessels of wrath, and damned them to eternal punishment?

 

[Van]

Only after the sinner repents of their sins and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and the Gospel concerning Him

"election to salvation" based on "faith alone", is a "reformed" teaching that is based on their "teachings", and has no Bible foundation!

Why do posters post such non-sense. First the actual "Reformed" false doctrine is people were chosen unconditionally, then faith was instilled via irresistible grace. And yes, the actual "Reformed false doctrine" has no Biblical foundation.

The actual "Reformed" false doctrine is that the lost are not able to will to be saved because of their total spiritual inability, the "T" of the TULIP. And of course, Romans 9:16 teaches the exact opposite, the lost can will and take action to be saved in accordance with the gospel of Christ.

 

[Silverhair]

I agree. The context includes God deliberately creating two types of vessels… one type for wrath; one type for mercy.

Paul gives the examples of God choosing Jacob instead of Esau before they were born… the older will serve the younger. He gives the example of Pharaoh… for this very reason… He created Pharaoh to demonstrate His glory.

It is all about God’s sovereign choice to show mercy and compassion to whoever He pleases… “even us”, as Paul states, who are vessels of mercy that demonstrate the riches of God’s glory.

The context includes the truth that election comes before faith.

peace to you

Actually what the text says is the God has mercy or compassion but does not tell us why He does.

Rom 9:15 ... "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

God is not arbitrary He is perfectly rational and thus always acts for a reason.

God’s plan shows {His reason} His merciful love for His creation. Knowing there is nothing we can do to earn our way into His presence, He made a way for us to know Him, whether through creation, conviction of the Holy Spirit or the gospel message. {Rom 1:16} Those that respond in a positive way to the promptings of God can know Him and be known by Him.

 

[canadyjd]

So God created certain people to be vessels of wrath, and damned them to eternal punishment?

Romans 9:18-22 teaches that very thing. It also anticipates the objection “why does He still find fault? Who can resist His will?”

It is a hard truth for some to accept. But it is scriptural truth.

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

Why do posters post such non-sense. First the actual "Reformed" false doctrine is people were chosen unconditionally, then faith was instilled via irresistible grace. And yes, the actual "Reformed false doctrine" has no Biblical foundation.

The actual "Reformed" false doctrine is that the lost are not able to will to be saved because of their total spiritual inability, the "T" of the TULIP. And of course, Romans 9:16 teaches the exact opposite, the lost can will and take action to be saved in accordance with the gospel of Christ.

Exactly what are you on about

 

[SavedByGrace]

Romans 9:18-22 teaches that very thing. It also anticipates the objection “why does He still find fault? Who can resist His will?”

It is a hard truth for some to accept. But it is scriptural truth.

peace to you

What completely rubbish!

God creates some as vessels of wrath who are hell bound, and then is LONGSUFFERING towards them!

This makes God to be not sure what He is doing

 

[canadyjd]

What completely rubbish!

God creates some as vessels of wrath who are hell bound, and then is LONGSUFFERING towards them!

This makes God to be not sure what He is doing

God knows what He is doing. Some do not understand it, even deny and reject it, though scripture speaks plainly toward the issue.

The passage very clearly states why He is longsuffering toward these vessels of wrath prepared for destruction… So He can demonstrate the riches of His glory toward the vessels of mercy He prepared beforehand… even us.

Peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

God knows what He is doing. Some do not understand it, even deny and reject it, though scripture speaks plainly toward the issue.

The passage very clearly states why He is longsuffering toward these vessels of wrath prepared for destruction… So He can demonstrate the riches of His glory toward the vessels of mercy He prepared beforehand… even us.

Peace to you

TOTALLY UNBIBLICAL

 

[Silverhair]

I focused on Romans 9 to support my beliefs. I focused on specific verses and explained in detail why they support my beliefs.

You do not have to agree with me. But to claim I have not supported my beliefs with scripture is intellectually dishonest.

I have explained my view of “election” as God choosing, in His sovereignty, who will be vessels of wrath and who will be vessels of mercy. The passages in Romans 9 go further and specially teach God creates those folks as a potter molds clay for those specific purposes.

Election is God’s sovereign choice of who will be vessels of wrath and who will be vessels of mercy. Since God creates them for that specific purpose, election is prior to faith.

peace to you

What is intellectually dishonest is for you to claim that Rom 9 supports your view.

Calvinist scholar John Feinberg admits:
“If Calvinists are right about divine sovereignty, there seems to be little room for human freedom. If freedom goes, so does human moral responsibility for sin. Worst of all, if Calvinists are right, it appears that God decides that there will be sin and evil in our world, maybe even brings it about that there is such evil, and yet, according to Calvinists, is not morally responsible for any of it.

If this is Calvinism’s God, Calvinism seems not only intellectually but also religiously bankrupt. Who would worship this God? Moreover, if atheists understand this portrait of God as paradigmatic of traditional Christianity, no wonder they are repulsed by Christianity.”
John S. Feinberg, “God, Freedom, and Evil in Calvinist Thinking.”

 

[Revmitchell]

What is intellectually dishonest is for you to claim that Rom 9 supports your view.

Calvinist scholar John Feinberg admits:
“If Calvinists are right about divine sovereignty, there seems to be little room for human freedom. If freedom goes, so does human moral responsibility for sin. Worst of all, if Calvinists are right, it appears that God decides that there will be sin and evil in our world, maybe even brings it about that there is such evil, and yet, according to Calvinists, is not morally responsible for any of it.

If this is Calvinism’s God, Calvinism seems not only intellectually but also religiously bankrupt. Who would worship this God? Moreover, if atheists understand this portrait of God as paradigmatic of traditional Christianity, no wonder they are repulsed by Christianity.”
John S. Feinberg, “God, Freedom, and Evil in Calvinist Thinking.”

While we disagree I have always found Candyjd to be genuine and honest. I think it is over the top to suggest anything else about them. Simply disagreeing or even possibly being wrong in no way imposes the idea that one is being intellectually dishonest.

 

[Silverhair]

God knows what He is doing. Some do not understand it, even deny and reject it, though scripture speaks plainly toward the issue.

The passage very clearly states why He is longsuffering toward these vessels of wrath prepared for destruction… So He can demonstrate the riches of His glory toward the vessels of mercy He prepared beforehand… even us.

Peace to you

The doctrinal distinctive's of Reformed Theology cannot be reconciled with what we know about God from His holy Word. Scripture has taught me to believe that God is loving and absolutely just. Could and would such a God allow a man to be born who has no possibility to be saved? Would the God of love and Scripture have me tantalize unsavable men with the offer of salvation? Would the God of all hope punish a man for all eternity for rejecting the offer of salvation, if that man was decreed by God to reject that salvation in the first place?

If Calvinism is true, Christ did nothing of redemptive value for the non-elect. Why are we commanded to preach the gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15)? If Calvinism is true, and I affirm to a man that Jesus loves him and died on the cross to redeem him from his sins, I may be offering nothing more than a false hope. If I urge men to receive Jesus as their Lord that they might be saved, would this not be nothing more than a cruel tease for many of those to whom I speak (Acts 2:36–39)? Why would the God of all truth, who speaks so sternly against lying, send His servants out to promote such a lie?

If a man is ordained by God to be saved, with no real responsibility on his part, then why spend time and resources seeking to bring the gospel to the world?

If they have been predestined to be irrevocably lost, then it is cruel to hold out to them the hope of the gospel.

How can you declare that God is love, if He has unconditionally destined men to the eternal torment of hell?

Following the logic of Calvinism a man’s “faith” in Jesus Christ has nothing to do with getting saved. In stark contrast, when our Lord was asked, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus responded, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." (John 6:28–29 NKJV). When the Philippian jailer asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" Paul and Silas said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved,…” (Acts 16:30–31 NKJV).

Chuck Smith
Senior Pastor, Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa

 

[Silverhair]

While we disagree I have always found Candyjd to be genuine and honest. I think it is over the top to suggest anything else about them. Simply disagreeing or even possibly being wrong in no way imposes the idea that one is being intellectually dishonest.

If @canadyjd can say that the scriptures support his calvinist view when they clearly do not that is being intellectually dishonest. He may be sincere in his beliefs but he is sincerely wrong. I understand that he wants to defend the position he holds but do you not think it is our duty, as a Christian, to point out the errors of his view?

I am not questioning his faith or salvation just his misuse of scripture.

The God we see in the bible that loves His creation and desires all to come to salvation has been turned into a God of power and control by calvinism. The God of calvinism only wants a few to be saved and has decreed for the vast majority of humanity to have zero hope of redemption. Even the sin for which God will judge them has been decreed by the calvinist God.

Calvinists prefer to talk about election, but the other side of unconditional election is a very troubling and unscriptural doctrine of unconditional reprobation.

 

[canadyjd]

TOTALLY UNBIBLICAL

Just because you say the words doesn’t make it true.

Show me from the context of Romans 9 it is unbiblical and I’ll change my mind.

If all you can do is SCREAM!!!!!, then go away.

This thread is for people who have opposing views to dialog in a civil manner.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

I have no problem with folks disagreeing with me. My focus is on Romans 9.

I don’t need a lecture about how bad “Calvinism” is. I don’t need folks screaming at me that I’m wrong.

SHOW ME from Romans 9 why I am wrong. Engage the text. Some have done that and we still disagree. That is OK. At least we are having a civil conversation.

peace to you

 

[Van]

Exactly what are you on about

Truth, justice and the Christian way!

First the actual "Reformed" false doctrine is people were chosen unconditionally, then faith was instilled via irresistible grace. And yes, the actual "Reformed false doctrine" has no Biblical foundation.

The actual "Reformed" false doctrine is that the lost are not able to will to be saved because of their total spiritual inability, the "T" of the TULIP. And of course, Romans 9:16 teaches the exact opposite, the lost can will and take action to be saved in accordance with the gospel of Christ.

 

[canadyjd]

Please go away @Van. Start your own thread, again, about how terrible reformed theology is. Don’t hijack this thread.

peace to you