Catholics and Faith Alone

[kyredneck]

So making it even simpler.

Faith properly defined is Faithfulness.

YLT:
4 Lo, a presumptuous one! Not upright is his soul within him, And the righteous by his stedfastness liveth. Hab 2

Quoted by Paul as:
17 For the righteousness of God in it is revealed from faith to faith, according as it hath been written, `And the righteous one by faith shall live,` Ro 1

11 and that in law no one is declared righteous with God, is evident, because `The righteous by faith shall live;` Gal 3

38 and `the righteous by faith shall live,` and `if he may draw back, My soul hath no pleasure in him,` Heb 10

Compare 'stedfastness' to:
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2

Conclusion:
18 But say may some one, Thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith out of thy works, and I will shew thee out of my works my faith:
24 Ye see, then, that out of works is man declared righteous, and not out of faith only; Ja 2

 

[Cathode]

YLT:
4 Lo, a presumptuous one! Not upright is his soul within him, And the righteous by his stedfastness liveth. Hab 2

Quoted by Paul as:
17 For the righteousness of God in it is revealed from faith to faith, according as it hath been written, `And the righteous one by faith shall live,` Ro 1

11 and that in law no one is declared righteous with God, is evident, because `The righteous by faith shall live;` Gal 3

38 and `the righteous by faith shall live,` and `if he may draw back, My soul hath no pleasure in him,` Heb 10

Compare 'stedfastness' to:
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2

Conclusion:
18 But say may some one, Thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith out of thy works, and I will shew thee out of my works my faith:
24 Ye see, then, that out of works is man declared righteous, and not out of faith only; Ja 2

That’s right. So Faith is Faithfulness worked through Love.

Very important that people understand this.

Not just mental assent, not just trust, but Faithfulness that works through Love.

The end result must be Love.

To faithfully feed the hungry, clothe the naked, to care for the sick etc.

“But he who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven”

 

[kyredneck]

That’s right. So Faith is Faithfulness worked through Love.

Very important that people understand this.

It's VERY important that people understand that this 'agape', i.e., 'thinking of others', is not the natural inclination of man. God has 'wrought within' those who 'do by nature' the things of the law. SEE Romans 2:13-15; Romans 13:8-10

 

[Cathode]

It's VERY important that people understand that this 'agape', i.e., 'thinking of others', is not the natural inclination of man. God has 'wrought within' those who 'do by nature' the things of the law. SEE Romans 2:13-15; Romans 13:8-10

That’s why we must fill up on Love, we are very poor in it, Jesus is very rich in it.

I didn’t want go down to the bush clinic one morning, I was very low and depressed, but it was my turn, so I dragged myself down there with a supreme effort.
I was asking on high not to get any bad cases that day.
So what did I get?

A woman had been walking for days in the jungle, placed a bundle of rags on the table. I opened it to find a baby boy with worst case of scabies I’d ever seen from head to foot.
Sitting him up I noticed he had his chin on his chest and looking down, seeming totally ashamed of himself and his condition.
But when I lifted his face and his eyes met mine, his misery met mine, but also a great infusion of Love filled me.

“What you did even for the least of these, you did for me”

Jesus is in the least, He draws us to Love from the least and unlikely.

Fixing him up was a joy at that point, but I was on a great high for weeks after that.

We must faithfully do, going against how we feel, this is Faith working through Love.
If I had stayed in bed, I would have remained miserable, instead I received a much needed infusion of Love that sustained me.

 

[Baptizo]

the doers of the law shall be justified

Good evening, brother. It is true that the law is written on the heart of the believer so they will strive to do the deeds of the law as a natural result of their faith. So there is nothing wrong with your interpretation, doctrinally speaking. I believe the meaning of “the doers of the law shall be justified” is that if you attempt to do the deeds of the law in order to be justified then you have to do it perfectly. Of course we know that this is impossible and there has only ever been One who has accomplished that.

James 2:10 - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[kyredneck]

I believe the meaning of “the doers of the law shall be justified” is that if you attempt to do the deeds of the law in order to be justified then you have to do it perfectly.

Does this sound as if they're 'doing it' perfectly? Note the conflict(s):

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Ro 7

14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would. Gal 5

if you attempt to do the deeds of the law in order to be justified then you have to do it perfectly

The saints don't have to 'attempt', the desire to do good comes 'naturally', and the 'fulfillment' of it has been made simple to grasp:

12 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets. Mt 7

8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law. Ro 13

14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Gal 5

8 Howbeit if ye fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: Ja 2

 

[kyredneck]

@Baptizo, it's good to have you back brother.

 

[Baptizo]

@Baptizo, it's good to have you back brother.

Happy to be back.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Salvation by "faith alone" is 100% unbiblical!

True salvation is by REPENTING of sins and FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ. Period!

 

[MMDAN]

Salvation by "faith alone" is 100% unbiblical!

True salvation is by REPENTING of sins and FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ. Period!

Salvation by faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone is not unbiblical. Those who have placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Ephesians 2:8) have already repented (changed their mind) in the process of choosing to place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Those who have repented no longer practice sin but practice righteousness. (1 John 3:9-10)

 

[Baptizo]

True salvation is by REPENTING of sins and FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Was the thief on the cross saved by having faith in Christ or by repenting of his sins along with having faith in Christ?

 

[kyredneck]

Was the thief on the cross saved by having faith in Christ or by repenting of his sins along with having faith in Christ?

...or, the thief on the cross could have been a child of God who had commited a capital offence. 1 John 5:16

 

[Cathode]

Was the thief on the cross saved by having faith in Christ or by repenting of his sins along with having faith in Christ?

The thief admitted his guilt and witnessed to Christ’s innocence.

“ He who witnesses to me before men, I will witness to him before The Father “

And in witnessing for Jesus, he did have faith in Jesus, but considering the thief’s own suffering, it was also an act of love to make that effort.

I see faith working through Love here.

 

[Cathode]

We don’t even need a saving Faith to use Jesus power, only trust. However, the fullest expression of that power works through Love.

When self is driven out by renouncing our will, fasting, acts of humility and prayer on our knees, we have greater capacity for Jesus in our hearts.

When we bring Jesus fully expressing Himself through us, then we bring real life changing encounters with Jesus to people.

Many times in street ministry I don’t know or even remember what Jesus said to people, it is totally between Jesus and that person. What I do know is that their lives are totally changed.

“ Without me, you can do nothing “

The main impediment is that we are cluttered with self, clearing out self is like clearing out a hoarders house, piles and piles of garbage.

Renouncing our will is like bringing a skid steer loader to clear out our soul. Our will generates all the garbage.

Start with the Lords Prayer each day which prays “ Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done “, this is a renunciation of our will, and preferment of The Fathers Will and His Kingdom. Not the garbage kingdom of our will.

Self is a worse enemy than Satan, Satan is merely the rodent that inhabits the garbage piles of self.

With a clean house we can fill up with Jesus and His Love and Power. Then things are very different.

There is a very big difference between inviting Jesus into your house when it floor to ceiling with garbage, and when it is clean, spacious and open. Jesus brings a great deal of gifts and those gifts need space.

 

[Cathode]

“Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be restrained; where there is knowledge, it will be dismissed. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.”

In the human will everything is partial, imperfectly expressed.

In God’s Will, only Jesus is expressed.

When we renounce our will, and live in God’s Will, the Perfect has come, we bring only Jesus who has all of the gifts.

When we bring Jesus, we bring everything. Jesus is the Love that never fails.

Each day we renounce our will, and by desire we live in The Father’s Will.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It's important, but having a correct understanding and having an ability to explain it persuasively in a theological sense is not nearly as important as truly having it. The Reformers, in making a distinction between faith alone and faith plus works and at the same time insisting that the "faith alone" which justifies is never alone - well, they were trying to tell us something. And in doing this, Baxter, in his paper on justification, and some of the things Edwards said and Piper also, get into areas that cause other precise theologians concern.

Where you should be concerned as a Catholic is that you don't let them mix you up into viewing ascribing to the faith in the sense of agreeing to the doctrine as a first step and then moving on into a life of works and love as directed by the church as a part of your justification. This is not what the Bible teaches, it's not what will give you the peace and security that Christ promises, and it could be damaging or even fatal to your soul although I'm not sure where that line really is. In other words, I don't know how wrong you can be and still be saved. With what you are saying on here I would think you are a true Christian but I do think you are being too charitable to the statements in the Council of Trent where they clearly send all of us Protestants to Hell. If they are right then I am lost and frankly, so are you.

Like I said earlier, I believe there are saved Roman Catholics. The great Reformed theologians also believed that, as did Spurgeon and G. Campbell Morgan, and of course others. But some of the things you guys teach knock us out of salvation if they are correct. That's just the way it is.

Dave, I was taught by Catholic ancestors who date back to Constantine and they told me that even if I was a rottenSOB all my life it makes no difference as long as you say you believe in Christ and ask for forgiveness somewhere in your life or right before you die… you are saved, you are the thief on the cross. That then negates the necessity of any sacrificial tradition. So why would I follow any other church… not when salvation is in my grasp and everything else is superficial?!?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

“Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be restrained; where there is knowledge, it will be dismissed. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.”

In the human will everything is partial, imperfectly expressed.

In God’s Will, only Jesus is expressed.

When we renounce our will, and live in God’s Will, the Perfect has come, we bring only Jesus who has all of the gifts.

When we bring Jesus, we bring everything. Jesus is the Love that never fails.

Each day we renounce our will, and by desire we live in The Father’s Will.

Come on brother… Not even the Pope?

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave, I was taught by Catholic ancestors who date back to Constantine and they told me that even if I was a rottenSOB all my life it makes no difference as long as you say you believe in Christ and ask for forgiveness somewhere in your life or right before you die… you are saved, you are the thief on the cross. That then negates the necessity of any sacrificial tradition. So why would I follow any other church… not when salvation is in my grasp and everything else is superficial?!?

Roman Catholics play a shell game with what they actually believe and teach. And when you meet an individual Catholic you really can't assume you know what they believe. But in all fairness many in the Baptist circles I run in are doing a similar thing the Roman Catholics do, just in a more simplified way. This is just my own opinion but the extreme silliness of what constitutes "worship" in most Protestant churches nowadays and the constant restless looking for celebrity leaders is driving a move back to the perceived stability of the Roman church.
Aaron Renn has an article up (it's about how J.D. Vance left evangelicalism) that explains why he thinks this is happening, without going much into the theology.

 

[Baptizo]

I see faith working through Love here.

How long would you say a person can go without faith working through love? Let's say you're having a bad day and you're not feeling as generous as you normally would be. You walk by a homeless person and you tell yourself that you're dealing with too many problems right now, I don't feel like throwing money his way. If that's how you define faith working through love, how long can a person go before their justification is lost? A day? A week? A month? A year?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

“Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be restrained; where there is knowledge, it will be dismissed. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.”

In the human will everything is partial, imperfectly expressed.

In God’s Will, only Jesus is expressed.

When we renounce our will, and live in God’s Will, the Perfect has come, we bring only Jesus who has all of the gifts.

When we bring Jesus, we bring everything. Jesus is the Love that never fails.

Each day we renounce our will, and by desire we live in The Father’s Will.

Come on brother… Not even the Pope?

Roman Catholics play a shell game with what they actually believe and teach. And when you meet an individual Catholic you really can't assume you know what they believe. But in all fairness many in the Baptist circles I run in are doing a similar thing the Roman Catholics do, just in a more simplified way. This is just my own opinion but the extreme silliness of what constitutes "worship" in most Protestant churches nowadays and the constant restless looking for celebrity leaders is driving a move back to the perceived stability of the Roman church.
Aaron Renn has an article up (it's about how J.D. Vance left evangelicalism) that explains why he thinks this is happening, without going much into the theology.

I’m not sure I understand… is this author indicating that Vance is in the throws of converting to Catholism because of social status issues?