Catholics and Faith Alone

[DaveXR650]

The question was whether bare intellectual assent of itself was enough for salvation. Many believed this false understanding and perished.

You couldn't possibly say that if you have ever read any reformed theology.

Your idea is that there is no final infallible arbiter of Scriptures interpretation, but you grant your interpretations of Scripture infallibility without officially declaring yourself infallible, you just assume it.

We're not foolish enough to think anyone is infallible. That's your assertion and it's obviously proven wrong.

Luther is the Korah of the New Covenant Church, their complaint is the same.
They defy the Chair of Peter as they defied the Chair of Moses.

Luther was one of you guys. Read his original protest. He got tired of the cynical money making practice of selling indulgences and the deliberate misleading of people that that would save them - all for money. If you think that is OK then go with it. You always start out the same way, with some kind of conciliary proposal of common ground. But soon you go back to your Roman ranting. It didn't take long this time either. I took the time to reply because there is always a chance someone is looking for answers. I don't think so in your case.

 

[Cathode]

You couldn't possibly say that if you have ever read any reformed theology.

So you are saying that no one believed that bare intellectual assent is sufficient for Salvation? I’ve met scores that still believe it.

We're not foolish enough to think anyone is infallible. That's your assertion and it's obviously proven wrong.

The Apostles were infallible and what they handed down by Apostolic Tradition is the Infallible interpretation of Scripture.
Not the countless subjective textual meanderings and speculation that has metastasised in the last 500 years.

I see so many conflicting doctrines built on the scripture alone, the foundation of which is subjective human interpretation of scripture. There is no certitude in doctrines built on that, nothing but assertion.

See to the foundation first, then build on that, not subjective shifting quick sand that leads to an abyssal.

The infallible Scripture needs an infallible interpretation. No sound doctrines are built on fallible interpretations of Scripture.

Luther was one of you guys. Read his original protest. He got tired of the cynical money making practice of selling indulgences and the deliberate misleading of people that that would save them - all for money. If you think that is OK then go with it. You always start out the same way, with some kind of conciliary proposal of common ground. But soon you go back to your Roman ranting. It didn't take long this time either. I took the time to reply because there is always a chance someone is looking for answers. I don't think so in your case.

Korah was one of the Israelite minor Priests as well, the similarities to Luther keep rolling. Rouse those people citing God’s word in defiance, we don’t need Moses to Lord it over us, we all a priesthood of believers.
We will make our own offerings to God how we want.

 

[David Lamb]

[/QUOTE]

@Cathode.

Many of my friends in the Reformed camp are quick to condemn those who "mix up" or combine faith and works.

While your post was not addressed to me, I feel I can't just ignore the statement that I quoted above. I fully believe the doctrines of grace (so I'm "in the Reformed camp", to use your term), but I certainly don't believe that in saying salvation is by faith alone, it somehow means that Christians aren't to show their faith by their obedience. We're not saved by our works, but our love to Jesus Christ should show itself in our actions/behaviour. I don't know of anybody of the "reformed camp" who would say otherwise, although obviously I am not personally acquainted with them all!!

 

[DaveXR650]

So you are saying that no one believed that bare intellectual assent is sufficient for Salvation? I’ve met scores that still believe it.

No. I'm saying that the Reformers have spent more time refuting that than anyone, including Roman Catholics. That is what drew me to Reformed theology at first.

 

[DaveXR650]

While your post was not addressed to me, I feel I can't just ignore the statement that I quoted above. I fully believe the doctrines of grace (so I'm "in the Reformed camp", to use your term), but I certainly don't believe that in saying salvation is by faith alone, it somehow means that Christians aren't to show their faith by their obedience. We're not saved by our works, but our love to Jesus Christ should show itself in our actions/behaviour. I don't know of anybody of the "reformed camp" who would say otherwise, although obviously I am not personally acquainted with them all!!

A quick search of the internet will help here. Richard Baxter, a Puritan who became upset with the rank antinomianism of the professing Christians he met in the army tried to come up with an answer to this. In the process he wrote some things on justification that seemed to be moving back towards a Romanist view on justification which combines faith and works. Most Reformed theologians consider his theology at best a wreak and at worst say he was a heretic.

John Piper recently wrote a book on faith and you can read similar reviews claiming that he also messes up justification by faith alone. Jonathan Edwards wrote some things on justification that have received the same criticism, that he was not completely "orthodox" on justification by faith alone. I noticed above you said this:

but our love to Jesus Christ should show itself in our actions/behaviour.

This shows your fear of mixing up faith and works. Owen said you were saved by faith alone but a faith that is never alone, not that it should or ought to show itself by works. Owen also said that saving faith had within it and as part of it in itself an intention to obey and follow Christ. Many reformed theologians say this goes too far also. @Cathode is correct in that this antinomian attitude is a true problem in Protestant Christianity. The whole "free grace" movement and the "carnal Christian" doctrines are based on this, where an intellectual assent to the propositions of the gospel result in eternal salvation and then living a Christian life is an optional choice that may or may not follow.

The part you quoted was me trying to say that a Protestant who says faith alone which must and will be followed by a changed life and good works is not that much different from a Roman Catholic who combines the two by definition but is believing essentially the same concept. In other words, as a Reformed Protestant, do I want to listen to Owen, who said that saving faith is "never alone" and then turn around and condemn someone who says it's "faith and works".

 

[Van]

SNIP

The Faith that we say saves is Faith acting through Love.

“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.” Galatians 5:6

This is the highest order of Faith, not just intellectual assent or even just trust in Jesus power.

But Faith working through Love.

So a Faith which moves the will to Love others, because Love is an act of will. An obedient faith which Loves others as the Lord commands.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

So we have to do something by Love which is inspired by our Faith, and that Faith is a saving Faith.
SNIP
.

Hi Cathode, I really enjoyed your entire post, I edited it simply to focus on my response.

1) Faith acting through love seems to me to mean our devotion to Christ and our siblings in Christ results in our faithful thoughts and actions to carry out the ministry of Christ.

2) I do not think our love and devotion to Christ, plus our trust in our salvation through Christ, plus our faithfulness in expressing our Love with thoughts and deeds, will save us. This does not, in my opinion define "Saving Faith." In my opinion, Saving faith is our faith in Christ which is credited by God alone, as righteousness. Based on this crediting, God transfers our human spirit into the spiritual body of Christ, where we are born anew, made alive together with Christ.

 

[David Lamb]

A quick search of the internet will help here. Richard Baxter, a Puritan who became upset with the rank antinomianism of the professing Christians he met in the army tried to come up with an answer to this. In the process he wrote some things on justification that seemed to be moving back towards a Romanist view on justification which combines faith and works. Most Reformed theologians consider his theology at best a wreak and at worst say he was a heretic.

John Piper recently wrote a book on faith and you can read similar reviews claiming that he also messes up justification by faith alone. Jonathan Edwards wrote some things on justification that have received the same criticism, that he was not completely "orthodox" on justification by faith alone. I noticed above you said this:

This shows your fear of mixing up faith and works. Owen said you were saved by faith alone but a faith that is never alone, not that it should or ought to show itself by works. Owen also said that saving faith had within it and as part of it in itself an intention to obey and follow Christ. Many reformed theologians say this goes too far also. @Cathode is correct in that this antinomian attitude is a true problem in Protestant Christianity. The whole "free grace" movement and the "carnal Christian" doctrines are based on this, where an intellectual assent to the propositions of the gospel result in eternal salvation and then living a Christian life is an optional choice that may or may not follow.

The part you quoted was me trying to say that a Protestant who says faith alone which must and will be followed by a changed life and good works is not that much different from a Roman Catholic who combines the two by definition but is believing essentially the same concept. In other words, as a Reformed Protestant, do I want to listen to Owen, who said that saving faith is "never alone" and then turn around and condemn someone who says it's "faith and works".

Yes, that's what I thought you meant, but I wanted to make clear that not all people who hold to reformed doctrines believe what you say Baxter and others do. I would say that there is a great difference between saying that you must do certain works in order to be saved, and doing good works as a result of having been saved, those works Paul writes of in Ephesians 2:

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:10 NKJV)

Thank you for replying.

 

[Cathode]

Hi Cathode, I really enjoyed your entire post, I edited it simply to focus on my response.

1) Faith acting through love seems to me to mean our devotion to Christ and our siblings in Christ results in our faithful thoughts and actions to carry out the ministry of Christ.

2) I do not think our love and devotion to Christ, plus our trust in our salvation through Christ, plus our faithfulness in expressing our Love with thoughts and deeds, will save us. This does not, in my opinion define "Saving Faith." In my opinion, Saving faith is our faith in Christ which is credited by God alone, as righteousness. Based on this crediting, God transfers our human spirit into the spiritual body of Christ, where we are born anew, made alive together with Christ.

When Faith acts on the will by Grace to Love, that is the transfer, we are the body of Christ doing as Jesus commanded, which is to Love.

When we Love, we are Jesus to others, God is Love. It’s the whole point of Grace and Faith, so that we Love.

If faith does not lead us to Love, it is dead.

When we Love others, we are loving Jesus.

“ What you did, even for the least of these, you did for me “

I was shown this in street ministry, I saw suffering Jesus Face on a drug addict, it was Jesus Face, even his voice was different.
He said when I got him off the ground, that I looked like Jesus.

I’ve seen Jesus Face and heard His voice.

It is not just our siblings in Christ, it is everyone, the least person you can think of that Jesus associates Himself with.

It’s mysterious isn’t it. Jesus in the one who Loves and Jesus in the one being loved.

It is when we are transformed by love we become Jesus who is Love, and we see Jesus in others being loved.

What we do and don’t do for others, we do or don’t do for Jesus.

So the drug addict had a powerful life changing encounter with Jesus, but so did I .

When we Love by Grace through Faith, we are sons of the Father, and we are heirs of all that is His. Love is the foretaste of Heaven, where only Love Reigns.

In the Father's House, there is no longer need of Faith, we will see Him Face to Face, and no longer need for Hope, because all or hopes will be fulfilled. But Love endures Eternally, the greatest of these is Love.

 

[MMDAN]

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works (justforcatholics.org)

 

[Van]

When Faith acts on the will by Grace to Love, that is the transfer, we are the body of Christ doing as Jesus commanded, which is to Love. SNIP

Again, I liked many of your observations, but edited your post to focus on our point of significant disagreement.

Here is my view:

In my opinion, Saving faith is our faith in Christ which is credited by God alone, as righteousness. Based on this crediting, God transfers our human spirit into the spiritual body of Christ, where we are born anew, made alive together with Christ.​

And here is my understanding of your (Catholic?) view:

When Faith (capital indicating an action by God?) acts on [our] will by grace to Love (Capital indicating God caused love) that is the transfer (of our human spirit), as we are then the body of Christ, because we are exhibiting Christ's command to love God and others.​

To present more fully my view:

1) I believe we (all humans) are made (conceived as) sinners, thus we start out in a sinful, separated from God, spiritually dead state. Romans 5:19

2) This separated from God state is referred to in scripture as being "in Adam" (1 Corinthians 15:22) and being in the "domain of darkness (or under the dominion of darkness, see Colossians 1:13).

3) The action to transfer our human spirit from being separated from God, to being together with God, is accomplished by God's action alone and does not depend upon our faith. (Romans 9:16)

4) The action to be placed (relocated) in Christ is performed by God. (1 Corinthians 1:30).

5) This relocation action by God is referred to as "the sanctification by the Spirit" (2 Thessalonians 2:13) and as being "called," "baptized" and "given." 1 Peter 2:9-10, Romans 6:3, and John 6:37. Note in all cases, the action is by God, and is not automatic because of our belief.

 

[Cathode]

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works (justforcatholics.org)

What isn’t understood here is these works are Jesus works by Grace and our works by Will.

Or a better way to say it. Jesus Love by Grace and our Love by will acted on by Grace.

Through Faith grace acts on our will to Love. So they can be called Jesus works and ours together, as members of the body of Christ.

“ Faith working through Love “

Works done as members of the body of Christ merits Christ and the member that performed it for Christ.
The hand of Christ (us), cooperates with the head of Christ by grace.

Works outside the body of Christ, merit nothing.

He the Vine, we the branches attached by Faith, bear the fruit of Love.

We need to bear the works of Love. Jesus cursed the fig tree because it did not bear fruit.

At Judgement, Jesus judges people by their love or lack of it.

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels withhim, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate themone from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set* the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessedof my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gaveme drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison,and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothedthee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you,Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not:sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did notminister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch asye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteousinto life eternal.”

On what basis did the cursed expect salvation, Faith alone ?

You can have faith enough to move mountains, but if it is not accompanied by the works of Love, you are nothing.

People might believe, but each day they might resist the daily grace to Love others as God sends them.

 

[Cathode]

Again, I liked many of your observations, but edited your post to focus on our point of significant disagreement.

Here is my view:

In my opinion, Saving faith is our faith in Christ which is credited by God alone, as righteousness. Based on this crediting, God transfers our human spirit into the spiritual body of Christ, where we are born anew, made alive together with Christ.​

And here is my understanding of your (Catholic?) view:

When Faith (capital indicating an action by God?) acts on [our] will by grace to Love (Capital indicating God caused love) that is the transfer (of our human spirit), as we are then the body of Christ, because we are exhibiting Christ's command to love God and others.​

To present more fully my view:

1) I believe we (all humans) are made (conceived as) sinners, thus we start out in a sinful, separated from God, spiritually dead state. Romans 5:19

2) This separated from God state is referred to in scripture as being "in Adam" (1 Corinthians 15:22) and being in the "domain of darkness (or under the dominion of darkness, see Colossians 1:13).

3) The action to transfer our human spirit from being separated from God, to being together with God, is accomplished by God's action alone and does not depend upon our faith. (Romans 9:16)

4) The action to be placed (relocated) in Christ is performed by God. (1 Corinthians 1:30).

5) This relocation action by God is referred to as "the sanctification by the Spirit" (2 Thessalonians 2:13) and as being "called," "baptized" and "given." 1 Peter 2:9-10, Romans 6:3, and John 6:37. Note in all cases, the action is by God, and is not automatic because of our belief.

You are complicating it.

Faith opens you up receive the Grace to Love, and in Loving you exhibit Jesus.

“ It is not longer I that lives but Christ who lives in me “

Love transforms us and sanctifies us, because Love is God and God is ceaseless act of Love.

We must Love all people without exception, even and especially our enemies.

“Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. “

But Love endures forever.

So what is the entire point of Grace and Faith but to arrive at Love.

 

[kyredneck]

I would say that there is a great difference between saying that you must do certain works in order to be saved, and doing good works as a result of having been saved,

I don't agree with your (typical of evangelicals) application of 'saved', but I very much agree with the gist of what you're saying. Good works come naturally to those with 'the law written in their hearts':

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

 

[Cathode]

So making it even simpler.

Faith properly defined is Faithfulness.

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, andhave not works? can* faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute* of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed andfilled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?”

Love is required, Love is works.

17” Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone*.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thyfaith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”

Faith is Faithfulness, “Faith working through Love.”

19 “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”

Mere Mental assent, no, even the devils will grant that.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?”

Ongoing Faithfulness and obedience.

“ Well done, good and faithful servant. “

Faithfulness working through Love, Faithfulness serving through Love.

Does a good and faithful servant merely believe? No he faithfully obeys and does what he is told.

 

[MMDAN]

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

 

[MMDAN]

In regard to "faith being alone" (vs. 17) or "faith without works is dead," (vs. 20) James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. Again, if someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

 

[MMDAN]

In James 2:19, we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance are in Satan (and not in Jesus) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

 

[MMDAN]

James does not use the word "justified" (vs. 21,24) to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

 

[DaveXR650]

Faith properly defined is Faithfulness.

Yeah. If you go over to The Trinity Foundation website, they have a lot on this, especially in regards to John Piper, who they take to task for moving back towards a Roman Catholic view of justification. I think MacArthur got accused of the same thing with his teaching on "Lordship Salvation".

 

[Van]

You are complicating it.

Faith opens you up receive the Grace to Love, and in Loving you exhibit Jesus.

“ It is not longer I that lives but Christ who lives in me “

Love transforms us and sanctifies us, because Love is God and God is ceaseless act of Love.

We must Love all people without exception, even and especially our enemies.

“Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. “

But Love endures forever.

So what is the entire point of Grace and Faith but to arrive at Love.

Yes, views that upset our presuppositions complicate our view of reality.

Our love and devotion to Christ does not result in God transferring us into Christ. It is God alone who knows our heart, who decides whether or not to credit our faith, love and devotion as flawed as they may be, as righteousness.

1 Peter 1:1-2

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who ... are chosen according to the foreknowledge [implementation of a predetermined plan] of God the Father, by the sanctifying [setting apart in Christ] work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.​