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The Sovereignty of Jehovah

KenH

Well-Known Member
‘ I cannot bear the mention of the word "contingency," when God is brought into account. “Happening" “chance" “contingency," are phrases which do very well for the vocabulary of Infidels, but they are not fit for Christians; for I know by my precious Book, that this glorious Being, concerning whom I am attempting to say a few words, "ordered all things after the counsel of His own will." (Ephesians 1:11) Do you wish to alter that counsel? Do you wish to set up your own will against His? "He ordereth all things after the counsel of His own will." Are you desirous to throw things into disorder, into utter confusion and ruin? If so, quarrel with God's sovereignty as fast as you can. But if you desire order to be maintained, and God is the God of order, then rejoice that He ordained all the events of time as an act of His sovereignty, and consequently that He rules them all; who shall be rich, and who shall be poor; who shall rule, and who shall be ruled; where and how a kingdom shall be set up; in what manner it shall reach the meridian of its splendour; how it shall decline, and when it shall be abolished. All are ordered and ordained by Himself. ‘

- Joseph Irons, excerpt from his sermon, “The Sovereignty of Jehovah”, link to sermon: The Sovereignty of Jehovah
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
‘ I cannot bear the mention of the word "contingency," when God is brought into account. “Happening" “chance" “contingency," are phrases which do very well for the vocabulary of Infidels, but they are not fit for Christians; for I know by my precious Book, that this glorious Being, concerning whom I am attempting to say a few words, "ordered all things after the counsel of His own will." (Ephesians 1:11) Do you wish to alter that counsel? Do you wish to set up your own will against His? "He ordereth all things after the counsel of His own will." Are you desirous to throw things into disorder, into utter confusion and ruin? If so, quarrel with God's sovereignty as fast as you can. But if you desire order to be maintained, and God is the God of order, then rejoice that He ordained all the events of time as an act of His sovereignty, and consequently that He rules them all; who shall be rich, and who shall be poor; who shall rule, and who shall be ruled; where and how a kingdom shall be set up; in what manner it shall reach the meridian of its splendour; how it shall decline, and when it shall be abolished. All are ordered and ordained by Himself. ‘

- Joseph Irons, excerpt from his sermon, “The Sovereignty of Jehovah”, link to sermon: The Sovereignty of Jehovah

It was the sovereignty of God in his choice to provide salvation by his grace to Joseph Irons but it was not his choice that he be born. That was the result of a natural act (ordained of God) by his mother and father and if he came into the world in the confines of a marriage then God certainly approved of it. However, God did not provide salvation for Joseph Irons because he had been previously designated as "elect" but because he, like every man born of a woman, except one, Jesus Christ, was a sinner.

Paul, the great apostle, said his was a faithful saying and worthy of all accdeptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.........
He did not say he came to save the elect sinners but just plain sinners.

God the Father, the Judge of all the earth, had already sentenced all sinners to death when he said "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." He said, "the wages of sin is death."

He would say after this sentence, "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."

To teach that the elect are the only sinners is simply wrong. All men are sinners, therefore ungodly. That means Christ died for all sinners and back to what Paul said, all can and should be saved.

Jesus Christ said to some sinners he spoke to face to face these words;

John 5:40
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Jesus Christ, the son of God thought they could willingly come to him and receive eternal life, but would not.

I have never seen a worse presentation of the person of God than you present here on a daily basis.

In the economy of the day, the elect of God are those whom Jesus Christ has saved by his blood and the Holy Spirit has indwelt and baptized into the body of Christ. These are elect because they are "in Christ," that is in his body, and Jesus Christ is elect before the foundation of the world. You see how the trinity is involved in our salvation? Those who are in Christ are elect in time.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
It was the sovereignty of God in his choice to provide salvation by his grace to Joseph Irons but it was not his choice that he be born
Sure it was. God creates everyone... we are all vessels;
Either of wrath or of mercy ( Romans 9 ).

As an example of a vessels of mercy:

Jeremiah was told that God knew him in the womb, sanctified him and ordained him as a prophet ( Jeremiah 1:5 )...
All before he was born.
 
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Dave G

Well-Known Member
Paul, the great apostle, said his was a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.........
He did not say he came to save the elect sinners but just plain sinners.
He also said:

" Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."
( 2 Timothy 2:8-10 ).

Paul, in the above, tells Timothy to remember that Jesus Christ ( of the seed, or lineage of David ) was raised from the dead according to the Gospel that Paul preached. Because of that Gospel, he suffered trouble as an evildoer, was even bound...but the word of God was not bound.
Finally, he told Timothy that he endured all things for the elect's sake;
So that they may obtain the salvation which is in Christ.

There's a little more to it, JD.
Have you not read these things? It's all in there, my friend;

In the details, and in every word of God. :)
 
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Dave G

Well-Known Member
Jesus Christ said to some sinners he spoke to face to face these words;

John 5:40
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Jesus Christ, the son of God thought they could willingly come to him and receive eternal life, but would not.
The Lord recognized the Pharisees' resistance towards Him ( and where it came from ), and was condemning them for it.
At the end of it all, no one comes to the Lord willingly... unless they have a change of heart that only God is responsible for.

Please see Romans 1-3.
I have never seen a worse presentation of the person of God than you present here on a daily basis.
I happen to agree with Ken on the vast majority of his posts regarding this subject...
And I was never raised in "Calvinistic" baptist churches;

Quite the contrary, I was raised in ( and attended for over 25 years ) Independent Baptist ones who taught the things that you seem to be.
But after years of study, I've come to see things quite differently than when I was very young in Christ.
 
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Dave G

Well-Known Member
In the economy of the day, the elect of God are those whom Jesus Christ has saved by his blood and the Holy Spirit has indwelt and baptized into the body of Christ. These are elect because they are "in Christ," that is in his body, and Jesus Christ is elect before the foundation of the world. You see how the trinity is involved in our salvation? Those who are in Christ are elect in time.
I can see that you don't understand election as Paul, Peter, John and the Lord Jesus taught ( Romans 8-11, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, 3rd John, John 6 ).
Perhaps more study of His word is in order?

I know that personally, I did not even begin to see these things for some 25 years after the Lord called me by His grace in 1978.
But then, I was not overly interested in studying... as I was young, easily carried about with certain winds of doctrine, and unaware, up until 2002, of all that my Saviour has done for me. :Speechless


I wish you well, JD, and may God bless you both in your studies and in everything else.
 
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37818

Well-Known Member
All Persons in the Godhead are to be understood to be the One LORD [Jehovah, Yahweh, YHWH] God.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Sure it was. God creates everyone... we are all vessels;
Either of wrath or of mercy ( Romans 9 ).

As an example of a vessels of mercy:

Jeremiah was told that God knew him in the womb, sanctified him and ordained him as a prophet ( Jeremiah 1:5 )...
All before he was born.
People who practice birth control or abstinence knows that what I say is true. They are aware of natural laws concerning the birthing process and know that children are born through a physical act of a man and a woman coming together and certain pre-ordained cycles being right. They know they can manipulate natural laws for their own ends. I know God does not sanction every birth that takes place in the world. I cannot imagine the God I serve bringing into the world one of his elect by the act of rape or a tryst outside of marriage, marriage, an act that is honorable in all and the bed undefiled, but I can imagine a God that has grace to save the perpetrators who come to him through Christ and also the one born of an ungodly relationship being a candidate for his salvation by grace through faith in the substitutionary work of Christ on the cross, proven by his resurrection from the dead.

There is no possible way for you to know that you, Dave G, were elected before the foundation of the world except by pointing to the fact that you say you were and pointing to your own persona as proof. That is a works religion and do not let anyone fool you into thinking that you can save yourself by merely saying you are a favoite of God who had no ability to believe the gospel, the one thing that men are required to do to be saved.

As for Jeremiah, he did not say God elected him in the womb, he said he knew him, and God knows all things by one eternal act of knowing. The life of Jeremiah was led by providence based on his foreknowledge, not sovereignty. He is allowed to do that.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
He also said:

" Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."
( 2 Timothy 2:8-10 ).

Paul, in the above, tells Timothy to remember that Jesus Christ ( of the seed, or lineage of David ) was raised from the dead according to the Gospel that Paul preached. Because of that Gospel, he suffered trouble as an evildoer, was even bound...but the word of God was not bound.
Finally, he told Timothy that he endured all things for the elect's sake;
So that they may obtain the salvation which is in Christ.

There's a little more to it, JD.
Have you not read these things? It's all in there, my friend;

In the details, and in every word of God. :)
I implore reason, logic, and faith in consideration of the gospel that Paul preached and who he preached it to. I am going to ask you to read the book of Acts from the time we are introduced to him in the year 37 AD in Acts 7 to the end of it. Then I will ask you to read what his special and specific mandate was, because we are given it in Ephesians 3 as being the apostle to the gentiles and as the apostle to the gentiles he had a special gospel for them. After that I will ask you what you think his reason was for stating that he suffered trouble as an evil doer and from whom he suffered it.

Meanwhile, read this from Acts for a hint:

27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia (Asia the province in Turkey, not the continent) when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)
30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
31 And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar.
32 Who immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down unto them: and when they saw the chief captain and the soldiers, they left beating of Paul.
33 Then the chief captain came near, and took him, and commanded him to be bound with two chains; and demanded who he was, and what he had done.
34 And some cried one thing, some another, among the multitude: and when he could not know the certainty for the tumult, he commanded him to be carried into the castle.
35 And when he came upon the stairs, so it was, that he was borne of the soldiers for the violence of the people.
36 For the multitude of the people followed after, crying, Away with him.

37 And as Paul was to be led into the castle, he said unto the chief captain, May I speak unto thee? Who said, Canst thou speak Greek?

38 Art not thou that Egyptian, which before these days madest an uproar, and leddest out into the wilderness four thousand men that were murderers?
39 But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.
40 And when he had given him licence, Paul stood on the stairs, and beckoned with the hand unto the people. And when there was made a great silence, he spake unto them in the Hebrew tongue, saying,

In the next chapter we have a record of Paul's sermon to the Jerusalem Jews; You should read the context but I am going to show you the one word Paul spoke that caused an explosion from the crowd.

Acts 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
22 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live.
23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,

Note: I am not speaking in sound tracks but with enough text that some can learn. I will be back later to comment more on this subject. I am going to employ logic and reason in what I choose to believe and my logic determines that it is the circumcision all during the ministry of Paul that causes his troubles and who violently resists his ministry to gentiles. And it is because of his special calling and his special gospel that he preached.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
There is no possible way for you to know that you, Dave G, were elected before the foundation of the world except by pointing to the fact that you say you were and pointing to your own persona as proof.
Or I can point to the truth of God's word, the fact that He is teaching me and leading me into all truth, and the fact that my life is matching what the Scriptures say about a person who is saved, JD.
One can know that they are one of His elect by comparing what His word says to our lives as believers in Jesus Christ, over time.

In other words, the presence of the Holy Spirit in someone will leave "markers", and those markers are laid out in 1 John, among other places.
If someone does not have these necessary evidences, then they do not have the Spirit and they are none of His.
That is a works religion and do not let anyone fool you into thinking that you can save yourself by merely saying you are a favoite of God who had no ability to believe the gospel, the one thing that men are required to do to be saved.
Quite the contrary, sir.
Election as described in the Scriptures ( particularly John 6, Romans 8, Romans 9, Ephesians 1 and other places ), relies on God's choice of whom He would save...

Not on us determining who He saves by "taking Him up on His offer".

Every true believer in Jesus Christ can then give glory to God for His unspeakable grace towards them...
Sinners in need of a Saviour. :Notworthy
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
As for Jeremiah, he did not say God elected him in the womb, he said he knew him
The Scripture says that He knew him...as in "personally".
That is what I see when I read the book of Jeremiah.

When God says that He knows someone personally, they also know Him... personally.
See Psalms 139, for example.
God "knew" David, and David knew the Lord.


Do you know Him, JD?
I do, and it was all His doing, not mine.
 
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KenH

Well-Known Member
Or I can point to the truth of God's word, the fact that He is teaching me and leading me into all truth, and the fact that my life is matching what the Scriptures say about a person who is saved, JD.
One can know that they are one of His elect by comparing what His word says to our lives as believers in Jesus Christ, over time.

In other words, the presence of the Holy Spirit in someone will leave "markers", and those markers are laid out in 1 John, among other places.
If someone does not have these necessary evidences, then they do not have the Spirit and they are none of His.

Quite the contrary, sir.
Election as described in the Scriptures ( particularly John 6, Romans 8, Romans 9, Ephesians 1 and other places ), relies on God's choice of whom He would save...

Not on us determining who He saves by "taking Him up on His offer".

Every true believer in Jesus Christ can then give glory to God for His unspeakable grace towards them...
Sinners in need of a Saviour. :Notworthy

Amen!
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
I implore reason, logic, and faith in consideration of the gospel that Paul preached and who he preached it to.
JD, "reason" and "logic" have absolutely nothing to do with believing and understanding the Scriptures, and they never have.
That's precisely why He tells His people not to rely on those things, but to trust solely on Him and His words ( Proverbs 3:5-7 ).
I made the decision to trust Him and what He alone says many years ago now, because that's what He wants me to do.

I can also say that after some 20 years of personal study, I see a marked difference between what the Lord has shown me through His word, and what you are telling me about God's word.

That said,
My sincere desire is that you someday take a closer look at just what's at the bottom of each post you make, sir:

"BELIEVE THE WORDS"


Again I wish you well, and this will be my final post in this thread.
 
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KenH

Well-Known Member
The Scripture says that He knew him...as in "personally".

Intimately, in a personal way. God loves His people intimately, individually, personally. The idea of a distant God, as taught by Deists, is a false god of their own imagination.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
The idea that God is not involved sovereignly in the creation of each individual reminds me so much of the Pelagianism I grew up in, and finally cast aside by the sovereign grace of God.

I was raised up to believe that God, through the Holy Spirit, gave man the Bible, and then God was done - and then it was up to man after that to, on his own, hear it, believe it, repent of sins, confess Christ as God's Son, and be immersed, and then keep his life as clean as possible from sin(such as being sure to attend every time the church door was open, don't commit any "big" sins, etc.) from then on. It was a quite mechanical, cookie-cutter process.

I am so thankful that God delivered me from the false teaching of "self salvation" and opened my heart to understand the gospel of Christ.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Sure it was. God creates everyone... we are all vessels;
Either of wrath or of mercy ( Romans 9 ).

As an example of a vessels of mercy:

Jeremiah was told that God knew him in the womb, sanctified him and ordained him as a prophet ( Jeremiah 1:5 )...
All before he was born.

If we take your view as an example for all of humanity then God has actually only shown an interest in a few individuals.

Are you suggesting that God picked out, prior to birth, all those to be saved?

We are all vessels of wrath up to the point where we freely trust in God for our salvation at which point we become vessels of mercy. Those that are in Christ need not fear the wrath of God.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
The idea that God is not involved sovereignly in the creation of each individual reminds me so much of the Pelagianism I grew up in, and finally cast aside by the sovereign grace of God.

I was raised up to believe that God, through the Holy Spirit, gave man the Bible, and then God was done - and then it was up to man after that to, on his own, hear it, believe it, repent of sins, confess Christ as God's Son, and be immersed, and then keep his life as clean as possible from sin(such as being sure to attend every time the church door was open, don't commit any "big" sins, etc.) from then on. It was a quite mechanical, cookie-cutter process.

I am so thankful that God delivered me from the false teaching of "self salvation" and opened my heart to understand the gospel of Christ.

Then you grew up in a church that mixed faith and works salvation but you have moved into a system of total determinism where man is no more than a puppet that has to be given their faith.

The bible says we are held responsible for what we say of Christ and the offer of salvation through faith in Him.

I have seen extreme views of salvation on various boards. The biblical truth is that only God can save and He has chosen to save those that freely trust in His son.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Are you suggesting that God picked out, prior to birth, all those to be saved?

God not only chose His elect before the foundation of the world, God also chose the reprobates before the foundation of the world.

"What typically happens when gospel teachers take an uncompromising stance on the biblical doctrine of predestination? There will be many accusations. This book will clearly teach what the Word of God says in its context, and it will show Christians how to refute slanderous accusations like hyper Calvinism, etc.

Men who deny reprobation will typically say, “Be careful what you blame God for,” “Supralapsarianism is intellectual rhetoric we have no business talking about,” “This doctrine is a mystery,” and “The secret things belong to the Lord.” And the list goes on and on.

The resistance to sound doctrine is transparent. When men deny reprobation, they will try to get God off the hook, so to speak, for His absolute sovereignty. They will also apologize to people for the doctrine of reprobation, or they will simply avoid it.

Biblical clarity has been suppressed for way too long. The call for God's people to boldly and unashamedly stand for the glory of God's free and sovereign grace in Christ should be our goal. When doing so, we also see God's glory is shown in the salvation of the elect, but also seen in the reprobation of the wicked.

What should the subject of reprobation cause in our attitude? God's people are made to see their place under their Master and to honor His glorious character. These believers are also shown in Scripture how to respond to others. The doctrine of sovereign election and reprobation will humble believers, and these saints will embrace God's sovereign purpose in election with reverence and godly fear.

Believers should always remember the mercy and grace they have been shown by God, in Christ. Therefore, when teaching and discussing doctrines, believers should show mercy, love, patience, care, and compassion to others.

Our prayer is to grow more. It seems clear that believers grow and mature in humility. This book will help us get a better understanding of the doctrine of reprobation from the Scripture. May the Lord bless His Word as it is taught in truth, in its context, for His glory."

- excerpt from Scott Price's foreword to the book, Biblical Reprobation: A primer on the most hated and neglected doctrine, by Sonny Hernandez, pastor of Trinity Gospel Church in Lexington, Kentucky
 
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