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Exhaustive Foreknowledge

Those who support the doctrine of exhaustive foreknowledge will often cite the same hand full of proof-texts.

Isaiah 46:21-2
Present your case,” says the Lord.
“Bring forth your strong reasons,” says the King of Jacob. “Let them bring forth and show us what will happen; Let them show the former things, what they were, that we may consider them, And know the latter end of them; Or declare to us things to come. Show the things that are to come hereafter, That we may know that you are gods.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure.

1 John 3:20
For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

I take them to mean just exactly what they say, and have no problem with them saying it. But there are also numerous examples of God not getting what He wants, not getting what He tried to get, not getting what He expected to get.

Jeremiah 19:5
They have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind.

Isaiah 5:1-7
Now let me sing to my Well-beloved
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:
My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.
He dug it up and cleared out its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst,
And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth goodgrapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.
“And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?

And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
I will lay it waste;
It shall not be pruned or dug,
But there shall come up briers and thorns.
I will also command the clouds
That they rain no rain on it.”
For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help
.

And these are by no means the only passages in the bible that is incompatible with the idea that God knows everything that will ever happen. Indeed, there are passages that aren't even compatible with the idea that God knows everything that has already happened.

Genesis 18:20-21
And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

Note that the above is God Himself speaking about what He is going to do and why He's going to do it. If you want to convert that overt statement of God's into some sort of figure of speech, where it effectively means the opposite of what it says, then you need to ask yourself why is doing so valid. Then, whenever you get an answer to that question, ask yourself why the same reason wouldn't apply to any passage at all. If a passage doesn't mean what it says then why does any passage mean what it says?

In short, scripture means what it says and God using His wisdom and power to both predicting the future and to guide the unfolding of history is not at all in conflict.
 

Deacon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
As the word ‘providence’ indicates, ‘the providence of God’ is a rather formal way of referring to the fact that God provides
Helm, Paul. 1993. The Providence of God. Edited by Gerald Bray. Contours of Christian Theology. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.

The word providence is built from the word provide, which has two parts: pro (Latin “forward,” “on behalf of”) and vide (Latin “to see”). So you might think that the word provide would mean “to see forward” or “to foresee.” But it doesn’t. It means “to supply what is needed”; “to give sustenance or support.” So in reference to God, the noun providence has come to mean “the act of purposefully providing for, or sustaining and governing, the world.”
Piper, John. 2020. Providence. Wheaton, IL: Crossway.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
God's providence is comforting and his foreknowledge is a rock we can stand upon.

Rob
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Those who support the doctrine of exhaustive foreknowledge will often cite the same hand full of proof-texts.

Isaiah 46:21-2
Present your case,” says the Lord.
“Bring forth your strong reasons,” says the King of Jacob. “Let them bring forth and show us what will happen; Let them show the former things, what they were, that we may consider them, And know the latter end of them; Or declare to us things to come. Show the things that are to come hereafter, That we may know that you are gods.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure.

1 John 3:20
For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

I take them to mean just exactly what they say, and have no problem with them saying it. But there are also numerous examples of God not getting what He wants, not getting what He tried to get, not getting what He expected to get.

Jeremiah 19:5
They have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind.

Isaiah 5:1-7
Now let me sing to my Well-beloved
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:
My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.
He dug it up and cleared out its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst,
And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth goodgrapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.
“And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?

And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
I will lay it waste;
It shall not be pruned or dug,
But there shall come up briers and thorns.
I will also command the clouds
That they rain no rain on it.”
For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help
.

And these are by no means the only passages in the bible that is incompatible with the idea that God knows everything that will ever happen. Indeed, there are passages that aren't even compatible with the idea that God knows everything that has already happened.

Genesis 18:20-21
And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

Note that the above is God Himself speaking about what He is going to do and why He's going to do it. If you want to convert that overt statement of God's into some sort of figure of speech, where it effectively means the opposite of what it says, then you need to ask yourself why is doing so valid. Then, whenever you get an answer to that question, ask yourself why the same reason wouldn't apply to any passage at all. If a passage doesn't mean what it says then why does any passage mean what it says?

In short, scripture means what it says and God using His wisdom and power to both predicting the future and to guide the unfolding of history is not at all in conflict.
if Yahweh does not have exhaustive knowledge, then is not sovereign and is is not the God of the bible, but of heretical open theism
 
if Yahweh does not have exhaustive knowledge, then is not sovereign and is is not the God of the bible, but of heretical open theism

I am not an open theist and I believe that God is sovereign. What I don’t believe is that man can try to have God “figured out” with any type of systematic theology.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Those who support the doctrine of exhaustive foreknowledge will often cite the same hand full of proof-texts.
SNIP
1 John 3:20
For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

I take them to mean just exactly what they say, and have no problem with them saying it. But there are also numerous examples of God not getting what He wants, not getting what He tried to get, not getting what He expected to get.
SNIP
In short, scripture means what it says and God using His wisdom and power to both predicting the future and to guide the unfolding of history is not at all in conflict.
Hi Nolan,

Great topic for discussion!

Let me respond to just one of the verses you cited.

In the Greek, the text reads "...and knows all." Every translation in English I looked at renders "all" as either "all things" or "everything." Neither of these translation choices is based on context, but on an attribute of God, as knowing everything. This is false. Jesus did not know when He would return, yet was said to "know all things" again adding "things" to "all" to insert an attribute thought to be God's. (John 21:17)

Anytime we see "all" (pas) in the text we should ask the question "all of what?" God knows all about the individuals He interacts with, such as Peter, or those who love God. In 1 John 3:20 God knows our thoughts and deeds, and since God does not condemn us, we should not either.

A better translation choice, pointing to whatever the context is referring to, is "all these things."

One final point, you referred to God "predicting the future." God does not predict the future, He declares what will happen, and then makes whatever was declared happen by intervening as necessary. When scripture says something happens "according to the "foreknowledge of God" a better translation would be according to God's implementation of God's predetermined plan.

Foreknowledge refers (in scripture) to knowledge formulated or acquired in the past being utilized in the present.
 
Foreknowledge refers (in scripture) to knowledge formulated or acquired in the past being utilized in the present.

Thank you for your input, Brother Van.

Many times we are falsely accused of open theism because we say that because God intentionally limits His knowledge, that means He learns what happened later on. They fail to understand that it doesn’t mean He doesn’t know every possible outcome and it doesn’t mean He isn’t in control of accomplishing His plans and purposes.

Further, many who teach the doctrine of Exhaustive Foreknowledge will admit that in eternity past God decided that He wanted to create the Heavens and the Earth. That means His desire to create had to come into his mind when at one point it wasn’t there.
 
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DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
I am not an open theist and I believe that God is sovereign. What I don’t believe is that man can try to have God “figured out” with any type of systematic theology.
Nolan. What you are advocating I think is open theism. By insisting God is sovereign you are more specifically moving into Molinism in which God gives true free choices but as sovereign already knows all possible choices, and all possible results of those choices, and as a result has a specific plan of action based on each of those choices which fits into his sovereign overall plan.

You are quite right in saying no one has God "figured out". Some theologians make bold statements that if they are wrong they are guilty of outright slander against God's nature. For instance, if someone says that God created millions of people with never any hope of salvation, for the sole purpose of damnation, and this was decided long before they had done anything wrong or even existed - in my view you better be right because you are making quite a judgment about God. We need to be careful. Some things we probably should not press too far.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
For instance, if someone says that God created millions of people with never any hope of salvation, for the sole purpose of damnation, and this was decided long before they had done anything wrong or even existed - in my view you better be right because you are making quite a judgment about God.
I agree.
That's why it is foolishness to make any judgements outside of what God's word says.

However, if you'll read Romans 9 carefully:

' Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (for [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
( Romans 9:6-13 ).

You'll see that it does tell us the answer to what you've stated.

A person is on dangerous ground who tells someone something about God that is not true;
But if it is in His word, we can indeed trust what is written.
 
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Dave G

Well-Known Member
What I don’t believe is that man can try to have God “figured out” with any type of systematic theology.
I agree, Nolan.
What I don't agree with is the "theory of relativity" that I grew up with ( and was taught from pulpits ) that states that no one who professes Christ can ever fully understand the Bible.

To that, I say this:

The Lord gave to His people His word... both to believe and to trust;
If no one can figure all of it out ( at least eventually ), then we as believers in Jesus Christ ultimately have nothing and no One to trust in except a God that, despite all that He's revealed to us in His word, cannot ever be fully known.

But to answer your comment directly:

Opening a person's mind so that they can understand the Scriptures, is something that only the Lord can do (Luke 24:45, 1 Corinthians 2:10-12).
No man-made systematic theology will ever come close to doing that.
In addition, God has never told us in His word that He has intentionally limited His knowledge;
In fact, quite the opposite:


He knows everything and there is nothing hid from the face of Him that created us.
 
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DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
I agree.
That's why it is foolishness to make any judgements outside of what God's word says.

However, if you'll read Romans 9 carefully:

' Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (for [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
( Romans 9:6-13 ).

You'll see that it does tell us the answer to what you've stated.

A person is on dangerous ground who tells someone something about God that is not true;
But if it is in His word, we can indeed trust what is written.
I think it takes a lot of theological gyrations to make Romans chapter 9 support the view that God before creation, as his primary purpose and desire, was to create millions of people for the sole purpose of burning in Hell for all eternity. While it is true that God's electing grace is in operation and mentioned as being in effect in Romans 9 the purpose is to help Jewish folks understand that God's electing grace is not based on ethnicity or on pursuing the legal righteousness of the law and to make all of us who do believe appreciative of God's grace because as stated in verse 29 we could just as well have ended up as Sodom and Gomorrah.

To go further than that, and try to act as if our message is to proclaim that God has chosen multitudes for damnation and hell before they were ever born is not what I think Romans 9 is about. And I do think that it is quite possible that this is a serious misrepresentation of God's character.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
I think it takes a lot of theological gyrations to make Romans chapter 9 support the view that God before creation, as his primary purpose and desire, was to create millions of people for the sole purpose of burning in Hell for all eternity.
Dave, I don't believe in performing "theological gyrations"...
But I do believe in taking God at His word.

Romans 9 tells me that there are vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory ( the saved ), and vessels of wrath fitted to destruction ( the damned ).
When I read further, I see that the subject of Romans 9 is this:

" As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
"
While it is true that God's electing grace is in operation and mentioned as being in effect in Romans 9 the purpose is to help Jewish folks understand that God's electing grace is not based on ethnicity or on pursuing the legal righteousness of the law and to make all of us who do believe appreciative of God's grace because as stated in verse 29 we could just as well have ended up as Sodom and Gomorrah.
That's not everything that I see when I read the entire chapter.
Rather, there's a bit more to it than that, if you'll read it very carefully.

I see things that are a bit more sobering, and that cause me to tremble at His word.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
To go further than that, and try to act as if our message is to proclaim that God has chosen multitudes for damnation and hell before they were ever born is not what I think Romans 9 is about.
My own message would be to proclaim God's truth to His people, if the Lord wills it.
I would tell them the bad news, and then I would tell them the good.

While I would not dwell on the fact that He has made vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, I would tell the saved exactly what Romans 9 says and that Paul wrote:
That believers in Jesus Christ are the vessels of mercy afore prepared unto His glory, and that they were saved to glorify God for His great grace and mercy that He has extended to them...
Instead of making them vessels of wrath whom He has allowed to fit themselves ( by willfully piling up sins to Heaven ) for His destruction.

That their salvation is a very serious matter ( not to be taken lightly ), and that the Lord is worthy of their love, trust and obedience.

Please keep in mind that I very much would like to see Him save many, many people...
But at the end of the day, I know that He is the one who saves, and He is the one who condemns people to His just Judgement.

Nothing that He does is unrighteous.
 
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DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
My own message would be to proclaim God's truth to His people, if the Lord wills it.
I would tell them the bad news, and then I would tell them the good.

While I would not dwell on the fact that He has made vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, I would tell the saved exactly what Romans 9 says and that Paul wrote:
That believers in Jesus Christ are the vessels of mercy afore prepared unto His glory, and that they were saved to glorify God for His great grace and mercy that He has extended to them...
Instead of making them vessels of wrath whom He has allowed to fit themselves ( by willfully piling up sins to Heaven ) for His destruction.

That their salvation is a very serious matter ( not to be taken lightly ), and that the Lord is worthy of their love, trust and obedience.

Please keep in mind that I very much would like to see Him save many, many people...
But at the end of the day, I know that He is the one who saves, and He is the one who condemns people to His just Judgement.

Nothing that He does is unrighteous.
I have no problem with the way you put these things in the quoted post. Especially I like the idea that people should know that if they do believe they are experiencing great evidence that they are indeed vessels of mercy. I also believe that all of us, if left without God's gracious influence, would easily end up as the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.

But that is not quite the same as the assertion made by some extreme Calvinists, who like to represent God choosing the elder brother to serve the younger even before they had personally done anything good or bad themselves as meaning that God sends people to eternal damnation in the same way. They then say that God makes people for hell like a potter makes vessels for different purposes and make the primary warning to be that we should not object to him doing that.

Such a warning is not fair to God, because that is not what he is doing and it's not fair to people who hear this and then become worried that they might be dealing with a God who in spite of them now going through 8 chapters of God's unfolding plan of salvation and maybe having their eyes starting to be opened as to what this is all about are suddenly and abruptly told that it's quite possible they are the clay fit for destruction and are warned not to dare object to it. To be clear, many Calvinists do not do this, and when they warn us not to object to God saving some and damning others it is with the understanding that this is due to the fact that we all are busily fitting ourselves for destruction until God intervenes, not that we are just being the lump of clay he has made. I hope you see the difference.
 
Nolan. What you are advocating I think is open theism. By insisting God is sovereign you are more specifically moving into Molinism in which God gives true free choices but as sovereign already knows all possible choices, and all possible results of those choices, and as a result has a specific plan of action based on each of those choices which fits into his sovereign overall plan.

I’m not an open theist and I reject Molonism. All I’m doing is believing everything scripture says as literally as possible and I do not try to ask questions that we probably shouldn’t be asking. God has not completely revealed to us how He operates behind the scenes.

Deuteronomy 29:29
The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

in my view you better be right because you are making quite a judgment about God.

You are correct and that is why I will simply believe in what God has spoken even if I can’t fully understand it and in doing so I think I’m on safe ground. That is why I believe it is a mistake when some try to dismiss passages as figures of speech in order to bend it to a systematic theology. You can arbitrarily do that with any verse and that is where the slander starts to happen.
 
He knows everything and there is nothing hid from the face of Him that created us.

I agree that He knows everything. I also know that sometimes He doesn’t know everything. Sounds like a contradiction, right? But it’s all in God’s Word. Why are so many Christians too afraid to say “I just don’t know”? Can any of us honestly say that we know the full extent of the Holy Trinity? I’m not arrogant enough to try to fit God into some kind of theological box.

Isaiah 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
 
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Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Thank you for your input, Brother Van.

Many times we are falsely accused of open theism because we say that because God intentionally limits His knowledge, that means He learns what happened later on. They fail to understand that it doesn’t mean He doesn’t know every possible outcome and it doesn’t mean He isn’t in control of accomplishing His plans and purposes.

Further, many who teach the doctrine of Exhaustive Foreknowledge will admit that in eternity past God decided that He wanted to create the Heavens and the Earth. That means His desire to create had to come into his mind when at one point it wasn’t there.
Hi Nolan,

I fear we hold quite different views of "Divine Knowledge." In any event a great topic for study and discussion.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your input, Brother Van.

Many times we are falsely accused of open theism because we say that because God intentionally limits His knowledge, that means He learns what happened later on. They fail to understand that it doesn’t mean He doesn’t know every possible outcome and it doesn’t mean He isn’t in control of accomplishing His plans and purposes.

Further, many who teach the doctrine of Exhaustive Foreknowledge will admit that in eternity past God decided that He wanted to create the Heavens and the Earth. That means His desire to create had to come into his mind when at one point it wasn’t there.
When you state that God has to learn anything in linear time as we do , then by very definition you are advocating for the God of Open Theism
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Hi Nolan,

Great topic for discussion!

Let me respond to just one of the verses you cited.

In the Greek, the text reads "...and knows all." Every translation in English I looked at renders "all" as either "all things" or "everything." Neither of these translation choices is based on context, but on an attribute of God, as knowing everything. This is false. Jesus did not know when He would return, yet was said to "know all things" again adding "things" to "all" to insert an attribute thought to be God's. (John 21:17)

Anytime we see "all" (pas) in the text we should ask the question "all of what?" God knows all about the individuals He interacts with, such as Peter, or those who love God. In 1 John 3:20 God knows our thoughts and deeds, and since God does not condemn us, we should not either.

A better translation choice, pointing to whatever the context is referring to, is "all these things."

One final point, you referred to God "predicting the future." God does not predict the future, He declares what will happen, and then makes whatever was declared happen by intervening as necessary. When scripture says something happens "according to the "foreknowledge of God" a better translation would be according to God's implementation of God's predetermined plan.

Foreknowledge refers (in scripture) to knowledge formulated or acquired in the past being utilized in the present.
God has always known everything that will happen, as he eiyher determined that to happen from eternity past into His creation, or else already has permitted it to be happening from eternity past.

So did God not know Adam and Eve would fall, did he get "surprised" and had to then go to plan B and the Cross of Christ?

Does he know that Satan will lose in the end then?
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Nolan. What you are advocating I think is open theism. By insisting God is sovereign you are more specifically moving into Molinism in which God gives true free choices but as sovereign already knows all possible choices, and all possible results of those choices, and as a result has a specific plan of action based on each of those choices which fits into his sovereign overall plan.

You are quite right in saying no one has God "figured out". Some theologians make bold statements that if they are wrong they are guilty of outright slander against God's nature. For instance, if someone says that God created millions of people with never any hope of salvation, for the sole purpose of damnation, and this was decided long before they had done anything wrong or even existed - in my view you better be right because you are making quite a judgment about God. We need to be careful. Some things we probably should not press too far.
Molinism trying to keep God limited in his knowledge, and bases kit more upon foreknowledge, but still states that he waits upon what we choose to do, as made himself ignorant to "freewill choices"
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
You are correct and that is why I will simply believe in what God has spoken even if I can’t fully understand it and in doing so I think I’m on safe ground.
You are. And this verse:
The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Should always be in our minds.
But if you do that you may end up cutting off various body parts, believing that you are saved by works, believing you are not saved by works, believing you are saved by baptism, believing you are saved by faith, believing works must be added to faith, believing you must honor your mother, believing you must hate your mother, believing you can carry a sword, believing in total non-resistance............... Every one of those statements have individual verses that prove their truth and they also contradict other verses.

You must try to make an overall sense of scripture. There is simply no way around it and the proof is that you are doing it even as you claim you are above doing it. If it's any help I would suggest that many of the best "theologians" have been doing this for years. There really is nothing new under the sun. One of the biggest defenders of high Calvinism, John Owen, is also on record as saying that he has it on direct authority of scripture that anyone without exception who comes to Christ will be received by him and saved. He also freely used Rev. 3:20 "I stand at the door and knock" freely as Jesus himself knocking on the hearts door of a sinner and asking admission. Does that sound like what you have heard about high Calvinism?

At the minimum, at least find out what the theologians who you have decided to disregard have really said before coming to judgement about their theology. And realize that you probably will not come up with something truly new and so anything you think of will for sure fit into an existing theology. Just like saying God doesn't always know what is going to happen indeed fits into open theism.
 
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