Revival is...

[John of Japan]

Last night in our prayer meeting, I recalled an experience from 45 years ago in S. Georgia. I was preaching in a little country church, and at the invitation a young man came forward from the back to get saved. At his salvation, the church erupted with joy, thanksgiving and praise to God. He was a prodigal son, come back to his family at last!

 

[JesusFan]

Last night in our prayer meeting, I recalled an experience from 45 years ago in S. Georgia. I was preaching in a little country church, and at the invitation a young man came forward from the back to get saved. At his salvation, the church erupted with joy, thanksgiving and praise to God. He was a prodigal son, come back to his family at last!

Reminds me of reading the conversion experience of Spurgeon, as believe was 17 years old, wandered from churches to church in midst of a bad snowstorm at the time, and finally landed at a church who had a small crowd due to weather, and had someone who was picked to preach a message as pastor did not make church service, and all he knew to preach was on isaiah look to me to be saved, and as he kept preaching just that phrase, Spurgeon stated he looked at Jesus and His cross and was saved

 

[Tenchi]

But Calvinists don't believe God's initiative in salvation is coercive. He doesn't say, "I'm going to make you a Christian against your will." Rather, He grants the sinner new, spiritual life, without which that sinner cannot believe on the Lord Jesus Christ:

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.” (Eph 2:1-3 NKJV)

Saying that God "grants the sinner new, spiritual life" is word-play, as far as I can see. By "grants" do you mean God allows the sinner genuine freedom to choose, or not to choose, their spiritual-regeneration? Or do you actually mean that God unilaterally determines that the sinner will be spiritually-regenerated so that they can then respond positively to the Gospel? In my experience with Calvinists, it's usually the latter, not the former.

I understand that Calvinists want to construe "dead" (in trespasses and sins) as meaning "utterly without the capacity to respond," or something like this, but I don't think this is what Paul meant by "dead" in Ephesians 2:1. Men in whom the Holy Spirit did not dwell in a post-Calvary, spiritually-regenerative way (e.g Job, Moses, Noah, Daniel, Cornelius) are given high praise in Scripture, called "perfect and upright," and "a just man and perfect in his generation," and "a devout man and one who feared God." Far from being presented as utterly incapable of a positive response to God - dead - in their sins, these men, sans spiritual regeneration (i.e. the indwelling Holy Spirit), lived exemplary, God-ward lives.

Paul often used "dead" to mean "separation from," or "self-sacrifice," rather than "utterly without the ability to respond." Read Romans 6:6-11; 7:4; Colossians 3:3, 2 Timothy 2:11, etc. I think this is the sense in which he meant "dead" in Ephesians 2:1. As you know, I'm sure, from the Fall in Eden until Christ's Resurrection, Man was spiritually separated from God - "dead" - but this state-of-affairs has been rectified through Christ, as Paul described in Ephesians 2:4-10 (and in Colossians 2:9-13, Romans 6:1-11, Isaiah 53; 2 Corinthians 5:18-21, etc.). But as the biblical characters already mentioned (Job, Noah, Cornelius, etc.) demonstrate, this separation did not mean a profound, incorrigible disinterest in God, an utter "deadness" in mind and heart, toward Him.

Anyway, this thread isn't about the Calvinist ordo salutis, or prevenient grace, but spiritual revival, so I'm won't say any more about Calvinist doctrine.

 

[John of Japan]

Jonathan Goforth's advice to a prayer meeting in China: "Please let's not have any of your ordinary kind of praying. If there are any prayers which you've got off by heart and which you've used for years, just lay them aside. We haven't any time for them. But if the Spirit of God so moves you that you feel you simply must give utterance to what is in your heart, then do not hesitate. We have time for that kind of praying" (Jonathan Goforth, "By My Spirit," p. 34).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Jonathan Goforth's advice to a prayer meeting in China: "Please let's not have any of your ordinary kind of praying. If there are any prayers which you've got off by heart and which you've used for years, just lay them aside. We haven't any time for them. But if the Spirit of God so moves you that you feel you simply must give utterance to what is in your heart, then do not hesitate. We have time for that kind of praying" (Jonathan Goforth, "By My Spirit," p. 34).

'Thou art coming to a King;
Large petitions with thee bring.
For His grace and power are such,
Thou canst never ask too much!'

 

[JesusFan]

Jonathan Goforth's advice to a prayer meeting in China: "Please let's not have any of your ordinary kind of praying. If there are any prayers which you've got off by heart and which you've used for years, just lay them aside. We haven't any time for them. But if the Spirit of God so moves you that you feel you simply must give utterance to what is in your heart, then do not hesitate. We have time for that kind of praying" (Jonathan Goforth, "By My Spirit," p. 34).

Just as long as not utterances in tongues being given forth though

 

[John of Japan]

Just as long as not utterances in tongues being given forth though

There were no tongues in revivals led by Goforth.

 

[JesusFan]

There were no tongues in revivals led by Goforth.

Very glad to hear that, as today at current time if are no tongues, [rophecies, visions, pretty much assumed to NOT be of and from God by many

 

[John of Japan]

"To have a revival in this Age of the Spirit and of the Church is to have God bring us back from carnality to spirituality, from disobedience to surrender, from love of the world to love of the Father, from malaise to health, from subnormal to normal" (Flanders, 11).

"It seems that when a young Christian surrenders to Christ, the idea of being a missionary often comes up, and it was no different with Rice. He was willing to be a missionary to Africa if it were God’s will. He wrote, 'One January day in the cattle country of West Texas, on my father’s stock farm, I went out by the woodpile, through the pea patch, and through the fence and down through the “brakes.” I knelt under a chaparral bush on bare ground that had been my closet of prayer before. There I told God that I must go to school. I promised I would give Him the tenth and more, that He could have anything and everything that I ever had. I promised God I would preach the Gospel, or be a Gospel singer, or a missionary, or anything else that He wanted me to be. I told God that with approximately $9.35 in my pocket, I would saddle my sorrel horse and ride off to college, trusting Him to open the way and guide me.'"
John R. Rice, the Last Revivalist of the 20th Century, by John R. Himes, p. 38. The quote from Rice is on p. 17 of 50 Years of Soul Stirring Illustrations, by Rice.

Complete surrender is vital for both corporate and personal revival. If you have surrendered nearly everything to God, but tell Him you will not become a missionary, you have not surrendered. You will be defeated in your Christian life, and as life goes on you will regret not surrendering. The benchmark for some reason appears to be being a missionary to Africa. I have met three different men up in years who were called by God to be missionaries to Africa when young, but said "No" to God. All three greatly regretted their refusal of God's will. On the other hand, I feel so privileged and blessed to have said "Yes!" to God to His call to be a missionary to Japan for 33 years, and 1000s of times have thanked the Lord for that privilege. Now I am so blessed to be able to teach missiology (among other subjects) in a Bible college and see my students go off to serve God overseas!

 

[JesusFan]

"To have a revival in this Age of the Spirit and of the Church is to have God bring us back from carnality to spirituality, from disobedience to surrender, from love of the world to love of the Father, from malaise to health, from subnormal to normal" (Flanders, 11).

"It seems that when a young Christian surrenders to Christ, the idea of being a missionary often comes up, and it was no different with Rice. He was willing to be a missionary to Africa if it were God’s will. He wrote, 'One January day in the cattle country of West Texas, on my father’s stock farm, I went out by the woodpile, through the pea patch, and through the fence and down through the “brakes.” I knelt under a chaparral bush on bare ground that had been my closet of prayer before. There I told God that I must go to school. I promised I would give Him the tenth and more, that He could have anything and everything that I ever had. I promised God I would preach the Gospel, or be a Gospel singer, or a missionary, or anything else that He wanted me to be. I told God that with approximately $9.35 in my pocket, I would saddle my sorrel horse and ride off to college, trusting Him to open the way and guide me.'"
John R. Rice, the Last Revivalist of the 20th Century, by John R. Himes, p. 38. The quote from Rice is on p. 17 of 50 Years of Soul Stirring Illustrations, by Rice.

Complete surrender is vital for both corporate and personal revival. If you have surrendered nearly everything to God, but tell Him you will not become a missionary, you have not surrendered. You will be defeated in your Christian life, and as life goes on you will regret not surrendering. The benchmark for some reason appears to be being a missionary to Africa. I have met three different men up in years who were called by God to be missionaries to Africa when young, but said "No" to God. All three greatly regretted their refusal of God's will. On the other hand, I feel so privileged and blessed to have said "Yes!" to God to His call to be a missionary to Japan for 33 years, and 1000s of times have thanked the Lord for that privilege. Now I am so blessed to be able to teach missiology (among other subjects) in a Bible college and see my students go off to serve God overseas!

Are we describing Lordship salvation here then?

 

[John of Japan]

“As an American phenomenon, revivalism refers to the various movements in the history of Protestantism that arose to revitalize the spiritual ardor of church members and to help the churches win new adherents.”
Richard Quebedeaux, By What Authority (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1982), 21.

 

[John of Japan]

Are we describing Lordship salvation here then?

No, of course not. The subject is revival, not salvation. Romans 12:1-2 was written to "brethren," who are already believers:
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

 

[JesusFan]

No, of course not. The subject is revival, not salvation. Romans 12:1-2 was written to "brethren," who are already believers:
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Thanks for the clarification

 

[Tenchi]

Complete surrender is vital for both corporate and personal revival. If you have surrendered nearly everything to God, but tell Him you will not become a missionary, you have not surrendered. You will be defeated in your Christian life, and as life goes on you will regret not surrendering.

No one knows what "complete surrender" actually is. For only after a person first surrenders to God, does He begin to reveal to them regions of their living that they did not understand would come under His control: their attitudes, their desires, their imaginations, their happiness, their reputation, and so on. Usually a person initially surrenders to God in the general, not the specific. "God do as you will with me," they pray, thinking that He will act upon them in the broadstrokes of their life - where they attend school, who they marry, upon what career they will embark, etc. - not in the minutiae of their relationship to their spouse, or their thought-life as they wait in line at the grocery store, or their attitude as they persist in some obscure, thankless task in service to God and the Church. But as God shows them the full scope of what it means to live in submission to Him, they realize that their submission isn't a once-for-all event at a revival meeting, but a daily - often many times a day - event, enacted each time they step out from under the Spirit's control in their thinking, attitudes and conduct and must come again under his will and way.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No one knows what "complete surrender" actually is. For only after a person first surrenders to God, does He begin to reveal to them regions of their living that they did not understand would come under His control: their attitudes, their desires, their imaginations, their happiness, their reputation, and so on. Usually a person initially surrenders to God in the general, not the specific. "God do as you will with me," they pray, thinking that He will act upon them in the broadstrokes of their life - where they attend school, who they marry, upon what career they will embark, etc. - not in the minutiae of their relationship to their spouse, or their thought-life as they wait in line at the grocery store, or their attitude as they persist in some obscure, thankless task in service to God and the Church. But as God shows them the full scope of what it means to live in submission to Him, they realize that their submission isn't a once-for-all event, but a daily - often many times a day - event, enacted each time they step out from under the Spirit's control in their thinking, attitudes and conduct and must come again under his will and way.

Out of curiosity, do you believe that Christ was an idealist …or was he a realist? You don’t have to answer my question, only note that answer will reveal your perceptions about him and your own walk thru life.

 

[Tenchi]

Out of curiosity, do you believe that Christ was an idealist …or was he a realist? You don’t have to answer my question, only note that answer will reveal your perceptions about him and your own walk thru life.

Well, my answer depends upon what you mean by "realist" and "idealist."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, my answer depends upon what you mean by "realist" and "idealist."

Look both in Wiki…I will abide by those definitions… but in full disclosure, I’m a realist.

 

[Tenchi]

Look both in Wiki…I will abide by those definitions… but in full disclosure, I’m a realist.

Is there some good reason why you can't offer your own definitions? I'm interacting with you, after all, not Wikipedia.

It seems to me, that if you can't be bothered to frame your own definitions, you can't be much interested in my answer. Why, then, should I bother to provide one? I know that both terms - idealism and realism - are not readily compacted into simple, neat, definitional packages. So, then, what do you mean by these terms?

And instead of having me guess as to what application you think they have to my post, why can't you simply spell it out? Why this coy, you-figure-it-out approach?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Is there some good reason why you can't offer your own definitions? I'm interacting with you, after all, not Wikipedia.

It seems to me, that if you can't be bothered to frame your own definitions, you can't be much interested in my answer. Why, then, should I bother to provide one? I know that both terms - idealism and realism - are not readily compacted into simple, neat, definitional packages. So, then, what do you mean by these terms?

And instead of having me guess as to what application you think they have to my post, why can't you simply spell it out? Why this coy, you-figure-it-out approach?

Suit yourself

 

[John of Japan]

No one knows what "complete surrender" actually is. For only after a person first surrenders to God, does He begin to reveal to them regions of their living that they did not understand would come under His control: their attitudes, their desires, their imaginations, their happiness, their reputation, and so on. Usually a person initially surrenders to God in the general, not the specific. "God do as you will with me," they pray, thinking that He will act upon them in the broadstrokes of their life - where they attend school, who they marry, upon what career they will embark, etc. - not in the minutiae of their relationship to their spouse, or their thought-life as they wait in line at the grocery store, or their attitude as they persist in some obscure, thankless task in service to God and the Church. But as God shows them the full scope of what it means to live in submission to Him, they realize that their submission isn't a once-for-all event at a revival meeting, but a daily - often many times a day - event, enacted each time they step out from under the Spirit's control in their thinking, attitudes and conduct and must come again under his will and way.

In the way I mean it, referring to Rom. 12:1-2, "complete surrender" (often called "full surrender") is, as much as one knows, to give everything in one's life to Christ: talents, future, relationships, etc. It is certainly possible to do this consciously, but later learn of something through the Holy Spirit's gentle guidance that one must give up or surrender.

The disciples certainly thought they had given up everything to follow Jesus. He taught them to follow Him to death, as you know: "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).