Tenchi
Member
I figured I'd get a reply like this...
-
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Revival is...
- Thread starter John of Japan
- Start date
I figured I'd get a reply like this...
And…
Praise God
"Here is Love Vast As the Ocean" is called the "Love Song of the Welsh Revival."
Here is love vast as the ocean
Loving kindness as the flood
When the Prince of life, our ransom
Shed for us His precious blood
Who His love will not remember?
Who can cease to sing His praise?
He can never be forgotten
Throughout Heaven’s eternal days
On the Mount of Crucifixion
Fountains opened deep and wide
Through the floodgates of God’s mercy
Flowed a vast and gracious tide
Grace and love, like mighty rivers
Poured incessant from above
And Heaven’s peace and perfect justice
Kissed a guilty world in love
Let us all His love accepting
Love Him ever all our days
Let us seek His Kingdom only
And our lives be to His praise
He alone shall be our glory
Nothing in the world we see
He has cleansed and sanctified us
He Himself has set us free
In His truth He does direct me
By His Spirit through His Word
And His grace my need is meeting
As I trust in Him, my Lord
All His fullness He is pouring
In His love and power in me
Without measure
Full and boundless
As I yield myself to Thee.
Here is love vast as the ocean
Loving kindness as the flood
When the Prince of life, our ransom
Shed for us His precious blood
Who His love will not remember?
Who can cease to sing His praise?
He can never be forgotten
Throughout Heaven’s eternal days
On the Mount of Crucifixion
Fountains opened deep and wide
Through the floodgates of God’s mercy
Flowed a vast and gracious tide
Grace and love, like mighty rivers
Poured incessant from above
And Heaven’s peace and perfect justice
Kissed a guilty world in love
Let us all His love accepting
Love Him ever all our days
Let us seek His Kingdom only
And our lives be to His praise
He alone shall be our glory
Nothing in the world we see
He has cleansed and sanctified us
He Himself has set us free
In His truth He does direct me
By His Spirit through His Word
And His grace my need is meeting
As I trust in Him, my Lord
All His fullness He is pouring
In His love and power in me
Without measure
Full and boundless
As I yield myself to Thee.
Truly, all revival must glorify Jesus. Any so-called "revival" that glorifies the Holy Spirit (one concept of Charismatic "revivals") proves that the "revivalist" does not truly know the Holy Spirit, because He does not life Himself up, but only Jesus.
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).
Tenchi
Member
???
Romans 8:9-11
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Philippians 1:19
19 for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
I don't know that we should glorify the Holy Spirit over and above Christ, but it is certainly very mistaken to diminish the Spirit's place, his role, in the reviving work God does in His children. There is no transforming work God does in His children except it is done by the life and work of the Holy Spirit who is GOD and deserving of our praise and adoration, as such.
Matthew 12:28
28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Acts 2:17
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh...
Romans 8:14
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
1 Corinthians 2:11-12
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
And so on.
Just to be clear: I don't subscribe to the hyper-charismatic foolishness of Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, Todd White or Kenneth Copeland. There is nothing of God, of the Holy Spirit, in the blasphemous nonsense they encourage among Christians. But believers who swing away from their brand of "spirituality" such that they deny the vital and central place of the Holy Spirit in godly living doom themselves to a spiritually impotent Christian experience.
Thank you for your comments. Reading my post again, I see nothing wrong with it. The Holy Spirit truly lifts up and honors Jesus, not Himself. And any so-called "revival" that talks more about the Holy Spirit than Jesus is false fire.
This does not mean, and I did not say, that we must ignore the Holy Spirit in discussions and teaching about Him. He does certainly produce revival. He also produces the fruit of the Spirit in us, enables and empowers for Christian service, guides us in the service of the Lord Jesus, etc. My favorite book on that line is R. A. Torrey's The Holy Spirit: Who He Is and What He Does.
Next week I will begin giving four lectures on the Holy Spirit to my Bible Doctrines 2 class. Here are some notes about the Holy Spirit and Christian living from one lecture:
The Holy Spirit and the Believer
- The Holy Spirit sets apart the believer for the work of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:17).
- The word “sanctify” is the Greek word hagiazo(ἁγιάζω), meaning:
- “make holy, consecrate, sanctify; (1) of things set apart for sacred purposes consecrate, dedicate (MT 23.19); (2) of God's name treat as holy, revere (MT 6.9); (3) of persons; (a) objectively, of Christ and his church acknowledged as being God's own possession set apart for a holy purpose, dedicate, consecrate (1C 6.11); (b) subjectively, of spiritual and moral preparation sanctify, make holy, purify (1TH 5.23); (4) specifically in 1C 7.14 of an unbelieving partner in a Christian home set aside for God's purpose sanctified, consecrated, accepted or acknowledged by God.” (Timothy Friberg, Barbara Friberg, Neva Miller, Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Grand Rapids: Baker, 2000), 31. Emphasis in original.)
- This definition is sometimes simplified to, “set apart for a sacred purpose,” and that is accurate. In other words, we are sanctified to serve God, not simply to live right, and certainly not for the purpose of serving one’s self.
- He guides the believer into God’s will (Luke 10:2, Acts 8:26-39, Acts 16:6-10).
- He produces His fruit in the life of the believer, making the believer like Himself (Gal. 5:22-23).
- He fills the believer, giving power for the work of the Lord (Acts 4:31).
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Here are some notes about the Holy Spirit from a different lecture:
I. The Deity of the Holy Spirit
III. The Actions of the Holy Spirit
I. The Deity of the Holy Spirit
- He is called God (Acts 5:3-4).
- He is called Lord (2 Cor. 3:18).
- He has the attributes of God.
- He is eternal (Heb. 9:14).
- He is omnipresent (Ps. 139:7-10).
- He is omniscient (1 Cor. 2:10-11).
- He does the works of God:
- Creation (Gen. 1:2, Ps. 104:30, Job 33:4)
- Salvation (John 3:5-8)
- Resurrection (Rom. 8:11)
- He appears together with God the Father and God the Son (Matt. 28:18-20, 2 Cor. 13:14).
- The Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13, Rom. 1:4)
- The Helper (John 14:16, 16:7)
- The Spirit of Grace (Heb. 10:29)
- The Spirit of Truth (John 14:17, 15:26, 16:13, 1 John 5:6)
- The Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding (Is. 11:1-2)
- The Spirit of Promise (Eph. 1:3)
- The Spirit of Glory (1 Peter 4:14)
III. The Actions of the Holy Spirit
- He searches out things (1 Cor. 2:10-11).
- He teaches (1 Cor. 2:12-13, John 16:13).
- He gives gifts (1 Cor. 12:7-11).
- He intercedes (Rom. 8:26-27).
- He speaks to us (Matt. 10:19-20).
- He directs the work of God (Acts 13:2, 16:6-7, 20:28, etc.).
- He is righteous (Gal. 5:22-23).
- He glorifies Christ (John 16:14, 1 Cor. 12:3).
Tenchi
Member
Well, I wonder how you decide what "a lot more" is, exactly. As I pointed out from Scripture, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and of Christ, the Third Person of the Godhead. So, I don't see how talk of him - especially when it is carefully biblical - can diminish, or compete with, a focus upon Christ. It's the wacky, hyper-charismatic blasphemy that does this, not a properly biblical emphasis upon the Holy Spirit in revival.
Amen!
Are you familiar with the so-called "Toronto Blessing"? The goings on there would certainly be "a lot more" to any reasonable Bible believer. There was even a participant who said he was "drunk in the Spirit," and then acts like a drunken man as he shares his "prophecy."
Edited in: The "Drunk in the Spirit" guy is John Scotland. Here is apparently his website, advertising his "Drunk in the Spirit" conference: Have Another Drink . The page has nothing about our dear Lord Jesus Christ, but mentions the Holy Spirit four times. In their doctrinal statement, they mention the Holy Spirit 11 times, but Jesus only six times. This is exactly the heresy I've been talking about.
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Add to that prophet of 'Holy Laughter" Rodney Brown
Think you and JoJ are talking past each other, as he is NOT saying we just ignore the Holy Spirit, as H seems to be saying that we need to define their roles they do per the Bible itself, as The Spirit in one that lifts up and exalts name and person of Jesus, while Jesus is the One that we worship and pay homage to while assembled
The Charismatic so called revivals seem to neither glorify Jesus nor the Holy Spirit, but lift up and glory there false teachers period
Tenchi
Member
Yes. An ugly business.
I'd agree. But is this all you mean by speaking of the Holy Spirit "a lot more" than Jesus? It seems to me that the problem isn't that folks in circumstances like the "Toronto Blessing" speak of the Holy Spirit a lot but that they do so in very unbiblical, blasphemous ways.
Yes, it gets worse, if you can believe it. Not only is the Holy Spirit made into booze, but into a hot-tub and/or a pot bong, as well. Apparently, you can "soak" and "toke" the Spirit if you get bored with getting drunk in him. Awful.
And if they'd spoken of the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of Christ - in properly biblical ways but in excess of mention of Jesus? Would they still be in the wrong purely on this basis?
I just think that imposing some sort of ratio of mentions of Jesus versus the Holy Spirit during a revival is...odd, bordering legalistic, even.
I haven't thought JoJ was suggesting we make no mention of the Holy Spirit at all during a revival. But who gets to say just how much mention of him is too much? If the mentions of the Holy Spirit are properly biblical, why would anyone be fussing about the ratio of them to mentions of Christ? As I said to JoJ, to do so seems to border on the legalistic to me.
We should use the bible to explain who each Member of the trinity are, what they do, how thy affect us when Christians etc, but think JOJ was remarking upon how in certain churches, its seems to ignore Jesus and basically the Holy Spirit seems to be in those circles exalting the false teacher, pastor evangelist
Tenchi
Member
Yes, there are churches that blasphemously contort the Person and work of the Holy Spirit, as JoJ has noted. But I've been in very biblically-sound, God-honoring, genuine revivals where the Holy Spirit was referred to often - not to the total exclusion of the mention of God and of Christ, but frequently. Were those revivals false and perhaps even evil because the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, was prominently situated in what was happening? I don't see how.
It seems to me that, in reacting to the bizarre and blasphemous antics of the hyper-charismatics in what they call "revival," more biblically-careful Christians can swing to the other end of things, suppressing anything that has the slightest "flavor" of hyper-charismaticism (e.g mention of the Holy Spirit) in how they define "revival." Both extremes are problematic, I think. This is all I was getting at in my comments on this business about how often to mention the Holy Spirit in revival.
Glad you agree.
So you have no problem at all with Charismatics over-emphasizing the Holy Spirit as long as they are not blasphemous with it?
Completely blasphemous.
You don't even know me outside of a few posts on the Internet, and now you are calling me "bordering legalistic??
And I have set no ratio whatsoever, but simply pointed out what the "drunk in the Spirit" man does on his website. You are getting "bordering" insulting.
So here you are--defending the "drunk in the Spirit" dude and his over-emphasis on the Spirit over Christ on his website.
I would appreciate it if you stuck to what I have actually said rather than what you think I've said. I was using the number of quotes of the Spirit and Christ on the website simply as an illustration of my Scriptural belief that the Spirit lifts up Christ, so therefore when the Spirit is lifted up over Christ--a demonstrably Charismatic tendency--it is unscriptural.
Once again, the Scripture that you have not actually interacted with: "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).
There are other Scriptures. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to teach what Christ taught. He does not ever emphasize Himself: "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26).
The Holy Spirit testifies of Christ, not Himself: "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me" (John 15:26).
So I will obey the Holy Spirit, lifting up Christ, teaching what Christ said, and testifying of Christ. The Charismatics, as a general rule, do not do this. They not only teach falsehood, bring destruction to true biblical ministries. Three times I had Charismatics attempt to ruin my ministry in Japan. So don't try to tell me how nice they are and how biblical they are in emphasizing the Holy Spirit over Christ.
By the way, what in the world is a "hyper-Charismatic"? Never heard of that. A Charismatic is a Charismatic, period. (I do not include the "First Wave" in this, if you are familiar with their history.)
Exactly.
Crazy stuff.
Tenchi
Member
I don't have to know you personally to recognize when a kind of thinking approaches legalism any more than I have to know personally the stranger who says to me "Trump is literally Hitler!" before I can say that he is expressing very poor thinking.
This assumes what I'm wondering about, namely that there is a too-far point in thinking and speaking about the Holy Spirit. Is there? Where is this point, exactly? Who determines where it is, and how do they do so? By what right do they assert this boundary upon others?
??? I'm just asking questions and thinking through what you've asserted. How is this "insulting"? Are you not used to folks offering challenge to your statements?
??? Uh, what? Where have I done any such thing? Again, you're assuming a standard or boundary for which you have yet to offer a good biblical basis or reasonable justification. So far, all you've done is point to an extreme and say, "That's too much Holy Spirit talk!" Okay. I agree - especially when that talk is unbiblical and blasphemous. But what if there's lots of talk of the Holy Spirit that isn't either of these things? What then? How do you establish a boundary on such talk, exactly?
I'm sorry if such questions are a bother and seem insulting to you but I didn't realize you were expecting fellow posters to just adopt everything you're proposing about revival.
Okay. But what is "lifted up over Christ" in a non-hyper-charismatic situation of revival? Sometimes, the extreme or the exception is used to form a rule, which I think is very dangerous. In my sixty years in the Baptist denomination, I've seen this happen a number of times with Baptists who establish standards for their fellows that have a...strained basis in Scripture. And so, I've asked the questions that I have. I'm not intending to attack you, though. I'm just thinking aloud about the matter you've raised.
How would you like me to interact with this verse? Does it set a standard for how often the Holy Spirit is mentioned in a revival? No.
I have no quibble with the truth that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, will glorify Christ. But this doesn't preclude, as far as I can see, speaking freely and often of the role of the Holy Spirit in spiritual living and revival events.
This verse says nothing about the degree of emphasis that Holy Spirit might give himself in the mind of a believer. As the lesson outline on the Holy Spirit that you offered a few posts ago demonstrated, the Bible has a good deal to say about the Holy Spirit. If what the Bible says about him is spoken of a lot in a revival, where is the harm? John 14:26 offers no clear answer to this question, it seems to me.
Great!
??? I'm not advocating for Charismatics. In fact, I think I've done quite the opposite in my last few posts. I'm sorry to hear they were sabotaging your efforts in Japan but their doing so doesn't justify your Strawman remarks, here.
I distinguish mainstream Pentecostals from hyper-charismatic people. Folks like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Paula White, Mike Bickles, et al are hyper-charismatics with whom the mainstream Pentecostal pastors that I know want nothing to do.