Tenchi
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I figured I'd get a reply like this...
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Suit yourself
And…I figured I'd get a reply like this...
Praise GodLast night in our prayer meeting, I recalled an experience from 45 years ago in S. Georgia. I was preaching in a little country church, and at the invitation a young man came forward from the back to get saved. At his salvation, the church erupted with joy, thanksgiving and praise to God. He was a prodigal son, come back to his family at last!
Truly, all revival must glorify Jesus. Any so-called "revival" that glorifies the Holy Spirit (one concept of Charismatic "revivals") proves that the "revivalist" does not truly know the Holy Spirit, because He does not life Himself up, but only Jesus.
Thank you for your comments. Reading my post again, I see nothing wrong with it. The Holy Spirit truly lifts up and honors Jesus, not Himself. And any so-called "revival" that talks more about the Holy Spirit than Jesus is false fire.???
Romans 8:9-11
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Philippians 1:19
19 for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
I don't know that we should glorify the Holy Spirit over and above Christ, but it is certainly very mistaken to diminish the Spirit's place, his role, in the reviving work God does in His children. There is no transforming work God does in His children except it is done by the life and work of the Holy Spirit who is GOD and deserving of our praise and adoration, as such.
Matthew 12:28
28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Acts 2:17
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh...
Romans 8:14
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
1 Corinthians 2:11-12
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
And so on.
Just to be clear: I don't subscribe to the hyper-charismatic foolishness of Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, Todd White or Kenneth Copeland. There is nothing of God, of the Holy Spirit, in the blasphemous nonsense they encourage among Christians. But believers who swing away from their brand of "spirituality" such that they deny the vital and central place of the Holy Spirit in godly living doom themselves to a spiritually impotent Christian experience.
Thank you for your comments. Reading my post again, I see nothing wrong with it. The Holy Spirit truly lifts up and honors Jesus, not Himself. And any so-called "revival" that talks a lot more about the Holy Spirit than Jesus is false fire.
This does not mean, and I did not say, that we must ignore the Holy Spirit in discussions and teaching about Him. He produces the fruit of the Spirit in us, enables and empowers for Christian service, guides us in the service of the Lord Jesus, etc.
Are you familiar with the so-called "Toronto Blessing"? The goings on there would certainly be "a lot more" to any reasonable Bible believer. There was even a participant who said he was "drunk in the Spirit," and then acts like a drunken man as he shares his "prophecy."Well, I wonder how you decide what "a lot more" is, exactly. As I pointed out from Scripture, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and of Christ, the Third Person of the Godhead. So, I don't see how talk of him - especially when it is carefully biblical - can diminish, or compete with, a focus upon Christ. It's the wacky, hyper-charismatic blasphemy that does this, not a properly biblical emphasis upon the Holy Spirit in revival.
Add to that prophet of 'Holy Laughter" Rodney BrownAre you familiar with the so-called "Toronto Blessing"? The goings on there would certainly be "a lot more" to any reasonable Bible believer. There was even a participant who said he was "drunk in the Spirit," and then acts like a drunken man as he shares his "prophecy."
Edited in: The "Drunk in the Spirit" guy is John Scotland. Here is apparently his website, advertising his "Drunk in the Spirit" conference: Have Another Drink . The page has nothing about our dear Lord Jesus Christ, but mentions the Holy Spirit four times. In their doctrinal statement, they mention the Holy Spirit 11 times, but Jesus only six times. This is exactly the heresy I've been talking about.
Think you and JoJ are talking past each other, as he is NOT saying we just ignore the Holy Spirit, as H seems to be saying that we need to define their roles they do per the Bible itself, as The Spirit in one that lifts up and exalts name and person of Jesus, while Jesus is the One that we worship and pay homage to while assembledWell, I wonder how you decide what "a lot more" is, exactly. As I pointed out from Scripture, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and of Christ, the Third Person of the Godhead. So, I don't see how talk of him - especially when it is carefully biblical - can diminish, or compete with, a focus upon Christ. It's the wacky, hyper-charismatic blasphemy that does this, not a properly biblical emphasis upon the Holy Spirit in revival.
Amen!
The Charismatic so called revivals seem to neither glorify Jesus nor the Holy Spirit, but lift up and glory there false teachers periodTruly, all revival must glorify Jesus. Any so-called "revival" that glorifies the Holy Spirit (one concept of Charismatic "revivals") proves that the "revivalist" does not truly know the Holy Spirit, because He does not life Himself up, but only Jesus.
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).
Are you familiar with the so-called "Toronto Blessing"?
The goings on there would certainly be "a lot more" to any reasonable Bible believer.
There was even a participant who said he was "drunk in the Spirit," and then acts like a drunken man as he shares his "prophecy."
The page has nothing about our dear Lord Jesus Christ, but mentions the Holy Spirit four times. In their doctrinal statement, they mention the Holy Spirit 11 times, but Jesus only six times. This is exactly the heresy I've been talking about.
Think you and JoJ are talking past each other, as he is NOT saying we just ignore the Holy Spirit, as H seems to be saying that we need to define their roles they do per the Bible itself, as The Spirit in one that lifts up and exalts name and person of Jesus, while Jesus is the One that we worship and pay homage to while assembled
We should use the bible to explain who each Member of the trinity are, what they do, how thy affect us when Christians etc, but think JOJ was remarking upon how in certain churches, its seems to ignore Jesus and basically the Holy Spirit seems to be in those circles exalting the false teacher, pastor evangelistYes. An ugly business.
I'd agree. But is this all you mean by speaking of the Holy Spirit "a lot more" than Jesus? It seems to me that the problem isn't that folks in circumstances like the "Toronto Blessing" speak of the Holy Spirit a lot but that they do so in very unbiblical, blasphemous ways.
Yes, it gets worse, if you can believe it. Not only is the Holy Spirit made into booze, but into a hot-tub and/or a pot bong, as well. Apparently, you can "soak" and "toke" the Spirit if you get bored with getting drunk in him. Awful.
And if they'd spoken of the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of Christ - in properly biblical ways but in excess of mention of Jesus? Would they still be in the wrong purely on this basis?
I just think that imposing some sort of ratio of mentions of Jesus versus the Holy Spirit during a revival is...odd, bordering legalistic, even.
I haven't thought JoJ was suggesting we make no mention of the Holy Spirit at all during a revival. But who gets to say just how much mention of him is too much? If the mentions of the Holy Spirit are properly biblical, why would anyone be fussing about the ratio of them to mentions of Christ? As I said to JoJ, to do so seems to border on the legalistic to me.
We should use the bible to explain who each Member of the trinity are, what they do, how thy affect us when Christians etc, but think JOJ was remarking upon how in certain churches, its seems to ignore Jesus and basically the Holy Spirit seems to be in those circles exalting the false teacher, pastor evangelist
Glad you agree.Yes. An ugly business.
So you have no problem at all with Charismatics over-emphasizing the Holy Spirit as long as they are not blasphemous with it?I'd agree. But is this all you mean by speaking of the Holy Spirit "a lot more" than Jesus? It seems to me that the problem isn't that folks in circumstances like the "Toronto Blessing" speak of the Holy Spirit a lot but that they do so in very unbiblical, blasphemous ways.
Completely blasphemous.Yes, it gets worse, if you can believe it. Not only is the Holy Spirit made into booze, but into a hot-tub and/or a pot bong, as well. Apparently, you can "soak" and "toke" the Spirit if you get bored with getting drunk in him. Awful.
You don't even know me outside of a few posts on the Internet, and now you are calling me "bordering legalistic??And if they'd spoken of the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of Christ - in properly biblical ways but in excess of mention of Jesus? Would they still be in the wrong purely on this basis?
I just think that imposing some sort of ratio of mentions of Jesus versus the Holy Spirit during a revival is...odd, bordering legalistic, even.
So here you are--defending the "drunk in the Spirit" dude and his over-emphasis on the Spirit over Christ on his website.I haven't thought JoJ was suggesting we make no mention of the Holy Spirit at all during a revival. But who gets to say just how much mention of him is too much? If the mentions of the Holy Spirit are properly biblical, why would anyone be fussing about the ratio of them to mentions of Christ? As I said to JoJ, to do so seems to border on the legalistic to me.
Exactly.The Charismatic so called revivals seem to neither glorify Jesus nor the Holy Spirit, but lift up and glory there false teachers period
Crazy stuff.Add to that prophet of 'Holy Laughter" Rodney Brown
You don't even know me outside of a few posts on the Internet, and now you are calling me "bordering legalistic??
So you have no problem at all with Charismatics over-emphasizing the Holy Spirit as long as they are not blasphemous with it?
And I have set no ratio whatsoever, but simply pointed out what the "drunk in the Spirit" man does on his website. You are getting "bordering" insulting.
So here you are--defending the "drunk in the Spirit" dude and his over-emphasis on the Spirit over Christ on his website.
I would appreciate it if you stuck to what I have actually said rather than what you think I've said. I was using the number of quotes of the Spirit and Christ on the website simply as an illustration of my Scriptural belief that the Spirit lifts up Christ, so therefore when the Spirit is lifted up over Christ--a demonstrably Charismatic tendency--it is unscriptural.
Once again, the Scripture that you have not actually interacted with: "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).
There are other Scriptures. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to teach what Christ taught. He does not ever emphasize Himself: "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26).
So I will obey the Holy Spirit, lifting up Christ, teaching what Christ said, and testifying of Christ.
The Charismatics, as a general rule, do not do this. They not only teach falsehood, bring destruction to true biblical ministries. Three times I had Charismatics attempt to ruin my ministry in Japan. So don't try to tell me how nice they are and how biblical they are in emphasizing the Holy Spirit over Christ.
By the way, what in the world is a "hyper-Charismatic"? Never heard of that. A Charismatic is a Charismatic, period. (I do not include the "First Wave" in this, if you are familiar with their history.)