Once Saved, Always Saved

[Van]

OK . . . let's start with a biggie: "Once saved, always saved." I know that statement doesn't appear word for word in the Bible. However, Romans 10:9 & 10 says that if we believe Jesus Christ is Lord and that God raised him from the dead, we shall (absolutely) be saved (sozo - made whole). Now, I believe when God says saved, He means saved . . . from His wrath that is to come because of the accomplishments of His Son, Jesus Christ (Romans 5:10). And at the time we believe Jesus Christ is Lord and that God raised him from the dead, we also receive God's gift of holy spirit which made us whole: body, soul (breath life) and spirit once again--that which Adam and Eve lost (spirit life) because of their transgression in the Garden. The gift of holy spirit (that which God is Holy & Spirit) is also that which is "the seed of the woman" in Genesis 3:15. 2 Corinthians 5:19 says that "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself . . ." So, the seed that made us God's kids is God is Christ in us. It's an incorruptible seed, as stated in 1 Peter 1:23. His seed abides within His kids, and there's nothing we could ever do, say, or think that would change that. It's incorruptible. The seed from our earthly father is corruptible. However, even if our earthly father wants to disown us, or we would desire to disown him, it may be done legally; but, nonetheless, his seed will always be in us until either he dies or we die, then it is corrupted. His seed carries on in his children until the last relative with his seed is childless and dies. In the end, I believe that what Jesus Christ accomplished is so huge that it's impossible to know it all. One day, we will know more, but until then, we have God's Word to learn and grow in, and we can be continually thankful for God's Word and His Son. - KP

Yes, I agree, the Bible clearly teaches in the New Covenant in His Blood, salvation is forever, no person call loss salvation.

However, in your presentation, I did see something I can quibble about!

And at the time we believe Jesus Christ is Lord and that God raised him from the dead, we also receive God's gift of holy spirit which made us whole: body, soul (breath life) and spirit once again--that which Adam and Eve lost (spirit life) because of their transgression in the Garden.​

At the time we believe, no automatic action occurs. We do not "believe ourselves" into Christ! What scripture says is we are chosen for salvation through "faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

But who must decide or declare or credit our faith as being "faith in the truth?" Do we or does God? God does. When and if God credits our faith as righteousness, Romans Chapter 4, then He transfers our human spirit into Christ, where we undergo the washing of regeneration, making us alive together with Christ, and after being made firm in Christ (i.e. born anew) we are indwelt, such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us. And of course we are indwelt forever, which means we will never perish but have everlasting life.

God bless

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, I agree, the Bible clearly teaches in the New Covenant in His Blood, salvation is forever, no person call loss salvation.

However, in your presentation, I did see something I can quibble about!

​

And at the time we believe Jesus Christ is Lord and that God raised him from the dead, we also receive God's gift of holy spirit which made us whole: body, soul (breath life) and spirit once again--that which Adam and Eve lost (spirit life) because of their transgression in the Garden. ​

At the time we believe, no automatic action occurs. We do not "believe ourselves" into Christ! What scripture says is we are chosen for salvation through "faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

But who must decide or declare or credit our faith as being "faith in the truth?" Do we or does God? God does. When and if God credits our faith as righteousness, Romans Chapter 4, then He transfers our human spirit into Christ, where we undergo the washing of regeneration, making us alive together with Christ, and after being made firm in Christ (i.e. born anew) we are indwelt, such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us. And of course we are indwelt forever, which means we will never perish but have everlasting life.

God bless

Elected, Regenerated Ppredestined to becoming saved and one day resurrected and glorified

 

[Van]

Did anyone see where individuals are elected for salvation through faith in the truth in post #2? Nope? That is because they deny 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Did anyone see where individuals are regenerated, made alive, before they are together with Christ in post #2? Nope. That is because they deny Ephesians 2:5.

Did anyone see where those saved are then predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and predestined to bodily redemption at Christ's second coming in post #2? Nope. That is because they deny Romans 8:23 which teaches adoption refers to our bodily redemption, not our spiritual rebirth. That is because they deny Romans 8:29 which teaches those saved were predestined, once saved to be conformed to the image of His Son, as siblings of Christ. Did any see where those saved were predestined to be adopted, referring to our bodily redemption in post #2? Nope? That is because they deny Ephesians 1:5 which teaches that our bodily redemption is predestined once saved.

What is included in our predestined inheritance as children of God? Being born anew, conformed to the righteousness of Christ? Being bodily redeemed at Christ's second coming? Or receiving the inheritance of eternal life? How about all three! See Ephesians 1:11.

Once Saved, Always Saved. No person can lose their salvation or give it away.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, I agree, the Bible clearly teaches in the New Covenant in His Blood, salvation is forever, no person call loss salvation.

However, in your presentation, I did see something I can quibble about!

​

And at the time we believe Jesus Christ is Lord and that God raised him from the dead, we also receive God's gift of holy spirit which made us whole: body, soul (breath life) and spirit once again--that which Adam and Eve lost (spirit life) because of their transgression in the Garden. ​

At the time we believe, no automatic action occurs. We do not "believe ourselves" into Christ! What scripture says is we are chosen for salvation through "faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

But who must decide or declare or credit our faith as being "faith in the truth?" Do we or does God? God does. When and if God credits our faith as righteousness, Romans Chapter 4, then He transfers our human spirit into Christ, where we undergo the washing of regeneration, making us alive together with Christ, and after being made firm in Christ (i.e. born anew) we are indwelt, such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us. And of course we are indwelt forever, which means we will never perish but have everlasting life.

God bless

The Calvinist will say, I'm totally depraved unable to seek out God. Therefore God chose me (predestination) and I had no say in the matter. This is the premise in which OSAS was born. I didn't choose God, He chose me, so I can't lose my salvation.

The free will believer will say, I'm totally depraved, also unable to seek out God. But when I heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sin, He called me to the righteousness in Christ. Now I have to make a decision to accept or reject that call. No response is a rejection to God, the Gospel message once heard demands a response, yea or nay, no exceptions.

 

[Tenchi]

But who must decide or declare or credit our faith as being "faith in the truth?" Do we or does God? God does. When and if God credits our faith as righteousness, Romans Chapter 4, then He transfers our human spirit into Christ, where we undergo the washing of regeneration, making us alive together with Christ, and after being made firm in Christ (i.e. born anew) we are indwelt, such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us. And of course we are indwelt forever, which means we will never perish but have everlasting life.

Is it the sincerity of my faith, its fullness and depth, that persuades God to save me? If so, how is this not a kind of works-salvation? Remember the story of the doubting father with the possessed boy? He comes to Jesus for exorcism of the demon in his boy and says to Jesus, "I believe, help my unbelief!" What did Jesus do? Did he say, "When your faith is properly complete, come back and I'll rescue your child." Did he say, "Only when your belief is truly sincere and profound will I help you." No, despite the weakness of the faith of the father, Jesus answered his plea for help and delivered his child from demonic possession. (Mk. 9:14-29) As the hymn writer wrote,

"Nothing in my hands I bring,
Only to thy cross I cling."

Also, we are made children of God, not through a process, but instantly, when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us.

Titus 3:5-6
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

1 John 4:13
13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

Romans 8:9
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

 

[JesusFan]

Is it the sincerity of my faith, its fullness and depth, that persuades God to save me? If so, how is this not a kind of works-salvation? Remember the story of the doubting father with the possessed boy? He comes to Jesus for exorcism of the demon in his boy and says to Jesus, "I believe, help my unbelief!" What did Jesus do? Did he say, "When your faith is properly complete, come back and I'll rescue your child." Did he say, "Only when your belief is truly sincere and profound will I help you." No, despite the weakness of the faith of the father, Jesus answered his plea for help and delivered his child from demonic possession. (Mk. 9:14-29) As the hymn writer wrote,

"Nothing in my hands I bring,
Only to thy cross I cling."

Also, we are made children of God, not through a process, but instantly, when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us.

Titus 3:5-6
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

1 John 4:13
13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

Romans 8:9
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

We are saved on and by the basis of death of Christ, not on the basis of faith in Him, as that faith accesses that salvation, but not the basis/cause of it

 

[Van]

The Calvinist will say, I'm totally depraved unable to seek out God. Therefore God chose me (predestination) and I had no say in the matter. This is the premise in which OSAS was born. I didn't choose God, He chose me, so I can't lose my salvation.

The free will believer will say, I'm totally depraved, also unable to seek out God. But when I heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sin, He called me to the righteousness in Christ. Now I have to make a decision to accept or reject that call. No response is a rejection to God, the Gospel message once heard demands a response, yea or nay, no exceptions.

I believe many of the lost have the capacity to hear and learn from the Father, through the gospel of Christ. Anyone who says the lost are "unable" to seek out God, need to consider Luke 13:24, where many lost people seek eternal life. Some of the lost are indeed unable, Soil #1 of Matthew 13, but the other three kinds of soils are able to hear, understand, and affirmatively respond in various degrees, to the gospel. The fact you may make a decision to accept the call (invitation) of the gospel, does not automatically save you, as God alone decides whether to credit your faith as righteousness.

 

[Van]

Is it the sincerity of my faith, its fullness and depth, that persuades God to save me? If so, how is this not a kind of works-salvation? Remember the story of the doubting father with the possessed boy? He comes to Jesus for exorcism of the demon in his boy and says to Jesus, "I believe, help my unbelief!" What did Jesus do? Did he say, "When your faith is properly complete, come back and I'll rescue your child." Did he say, "Only when your belief is truly sincere and profound will I help you." No, despite the weakness of the faith of the father, Jesus answered his plea for help and delivered his child from demonic possession. (Mk. 9:14-29) As the hymn writer wrote,

"Nothing in my hands I bring,
Only to thy cross I cling."

Also, we are made children of God, not through a process, but instantly, when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us.

Titus 3:5-6
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

1 John 4:13
13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

Romans 8:9
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

No, it is not the sincerity of our faith, its fullness and depth, that "persuades" God to say us. That would mean we saved ourselves.
No, we are not made children when we are indwelt. We are made spiritual children when we undergo the washing of regeneration, where we are born anew as children of God.

 

[Tenchi]

No, we are not made children when we are indwelt. We are made spiritual children when we undergo the washing of regeneration, where we are born anew as children of God.

Is the latter not the effect of the former? This is what God's word indicates. See John 3:3-8, Titus 3:5, Romans 8:9-13, etc.

 

[Van]

Is the latter not the effect of the former? This is what God's word indicates. See John 3:3-8, Titus 3:5, Romans 8:9-13, etc.

Here is the sequence,

1) we hear and learn from the Father and are drawn, attracted, with the lovingkindness of Christ's gospel.

2) We put our trust in the name of Christ Jesus, as God the Son, and our Lord and Savior, sent by the Father

3) God credits our faith, or not at His choosing, as righteousness.

4) On the basis of our credited faith, He transfers us into Christ where we undergo the washing of regeneration, also called the circumcision of Christ.

5) We arise, after the washing, as a new creation, born anew, made spiritually blameless by the blood of the Lamb.

6) Having been established in Christ, we are then indwelt, such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us.​

John 3:3-8 teaches we must be born anew spiritually before we can enter the kingdom.
Titus 3:5 teaches we undergo the washing of regeneration, which results in being made spiritually alive, no longer separated from God due to unholiness, and then are indwelt with our Helper who provides renewal for our minds.
Romans 8:9 teaches we are in Christ's Spirit if we are indwelt. If we are not indwelt, we do not belong to Christ.
Romans 8:10 teaches if we are indwelt, we have been made alive by the washing of regeneration and have been made righteous by the blood of the Lamb.
Romans 8:11 teaches if we are indwelt, we will be bodily redeemed, in a glorified physical body, when Christ returns at His Second coming.

 

[JesusFan]

Here is the sequence,

​

1) we hear and learn from the Father and are drawn, attracted, with the lovingkindness of Christ's gospel.​

​

2) We put our trust in the name of Christ Jesus, as God the Son, and our Lord and Savior, sent by the Father​

​

3) God credits our faith, or not at His choosing, as righteousness.​

​

4) On the basis of our credited faith, He transfers us into Christ where we undergo the washing of regeneration, also called the circumcision of Christ.​

​

5) We arise, after the washing, as a new creation, born anew, made spiritually blameless by the blood of the Lamb.​

​

6) Having been established in Christ, we are then indwelt, such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us.​

John 3:3-8 teaches we must be born anew spiritually before we can enter the kingdom.
Titus 3:5 teaches we undergo the washing of regeneration, which results in being made spiritually alive, no longer separated from God due to unholiness, and then are indwelt with our Helper who provides renewal for our minds.
Romans 8:9 teaches we are in Christ's Spirit if we are indwelt. If we are not indwelt, we do not belong to Christ.
Romans 8:10 teaches if we are indwelt, we have been made alive by the washing of regeneration and have been made righteous by the blood of the Lamb.
Romans 8:11 teaches if we are indwelt, we will be bodily redeemed, in a glorified physical body, when Christ returns at His Second coming.

None seek after God, none apart from the work of the Holy Spirit will trust in Jesus, as deaf and dumb by very natures to spiritual things of God

 

[Tenchi]

Here is the sequence,

1) we hear and learn from the Father and are drawn, attracted, with the lovingkindness of Christ's gospel.

2) We put our trust in the name of Christ Jesus, as God the Son, and our Lord and Savior, sent by the Father

3) God credits our faith, or not at His choosing, as righteousness.

4) On the basis of our credited faith, He transfers us into Christ where we undergo the washing of regeneration, also called the circumcision of Christ.

5) We arise, after the washing, as a new creation, born anew, made spiritually blameless by the blood of the Lamb.

6) Having been established in Christ, we are then indwelt, such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us.

I think you might try to read more carefully the passages I suggested to you. Instead of conforming the passages to your sequence, let them tell you what the case is concerning how one is saved. If you do, you'll see that much of what you divvy up here into steps is a single event accomplished by the Holy Spirit when he indwells the one who has trusted in Christ as their Savior and Lord.

The "sequence" as I see it in God's word is as follows:

1. God draws (Jn. 6:44), convicts (Jn. 16:8), and enables repentance (2 Ti. 2:25) in the mind and heart of the lost person. Often, He uses the pain and emptiness of sinful living to move the lost toward Himself who, when they come to God through Christ, discover in Him what selfish living can never provide: Forgiveness, cleansing, redemption, eternal meaning/purpose and unparalleled fulfillment (Lu. 24:46-47; Ac. 15:8-9; 26:18; Col. 1:14; Ps. 36:7-9; 16:11; Phil. 3:7-14).

2. Having been helped by God to an understanding of the Gospel, God allows the lost person to freely choose to trust in Christ as Savior and Lord, of their own accord humbling themselves under its Truth (Jn. 3:15-18; 5:24; Matt. 18:4; Ja. 4:6-10, 2 Ti. 1:12b, etc.) and so are indwelt by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19-20; 1 Jn. 4:13).

3. By the coming of the Holy Spirit into the one who trusts in Christ, and simultaneous with his coming into them, that Spirit-indwelt person is "baptized" into Christ (i.e. "born-again" - Lu. 3:16; Ac. 1:4-5; 2:3-4; Ro. 6:3-5; Titus 3:5) and thereby made a "new creature in Christ" (2 Cor. 5:17; Ro. 6:4). Within this spiritual "baptism," is full justification, sanctification and redemption (1 Cor. 1:2, 30; 6:11; 2 Cor. 5:21; Ro. 3:21-25, etc.) that is applied to the lost person at the moment the Spirit indwells them and is essential to their being accepted by God as His own. This is a single, solitary event, never repeated (He. 13:5; Jn. 6:47; 10:27-29).

John 3:3-8 teaches we must be born anew spiritually before we can enter the kingdom.

In the passage, Jesus also teaches by what means this is accomplished, offering no sequence such as you have put forward, but simply indicating that one must be "born-again" by the Holy Spirit in order to see God's kingdom.

Titus 3:5 teaches we undergo the washing of regeneration, which results in being made spiritually alive, no longer separated from God due to unholiness, and then are indwelt with our Helper who provides renewal for our minds.

In Titus 3:3-7, Paul expands on what being "born-again" of the Spirit entails: washing by regeneration and spiritual renewal by him. Again, there is no sequence laid out in the passage like the one you've delineated, only a statement that suggests that being born-again is an instantaneous event in which washing and renewal happen together as a consequence of the presence of the Spirit within a person. In the Spirit is imparted divine justification, sanctification and redemption who does not merely apply these things to the convert but is these things himself (among several other things - truth, holiness, love, joy, peace, meekness, grace, etc.).

Romans 8:9 teaches we are in Christ's Spirit if we are indwelt. If we are not indwelt, we do not belong to Christ.

Which is to say that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God and Christ (Ro. 8:9), is spiritual life and if he does not indwell a person, they are not born-again, they are not saved. So, then, when the Spirit indwells a person, simply by his presence within them, they are placed in Christ and he in them.

 

[Van]

None seek after God, none apart from the work of the Holy Spirit will trust in Jesus, as deaf and dumb by very natures to spiritual things of God

This is false, see Luke 13:24.

 

[Charlie24]

This is false, see Luke 13:24.

Van, I think maybe Luke 13:24 could be misunderstood.

The many that seek to enter in and not able to are those who are not seeking to enter through the Blood of Christ.

They are not seeking God's way but another. Therefore they are not seeking God.

Any way you look at it they have missed the mark of seeking out God's will and way.

They are not seeking God, they are seeking their own way.

 

[Van]

False claims:
1) "1. God draws (Jn. 6:44), convicts (Jn. 16:8), and enables repentance (2 Ti. 2:25) in the mind and heart of the lost person."

God draws, attracts the lost with the lovingkindness shown by Christ high and lifted up.
The Paraclete, or Helper, when He came, inspired Christ's disciples, with verbal and written testimony, to convict the world, fallen humanity, regarding sin, righteousness and judgment. 2 Timothy 2:25 teaches God must allow (grant) repentance rather than hardening the heart or the opposite of the claim.

2) The lost need supernatural enablement to understand God's word and be guided to Christ. However, Galatians 3:24 teaches no such requirement for enablement, but rather God's word (the Law) can guide, like an escort, the lost to Christ.

3) John 3:16 clearly teaches first be believe and then enter Christ, rather than the false claim, enter then believe.

4) The usage of "see" in John 3:3 is to "experience" something, such as I have an appointment to "see" my doctor. The usage has nothing to do with being aware of the kingdom of God, the false claim of Calvinism. John 3:3-8 fully supports the sequence I provided.

5) The false claim the lost do not need to be born anew before they are indwelt.​

 

[Charlie24]

False claims:
1) "1. God draws (Jn. 6:44), convicts (Jn. 16:8), and enables repentance (2 Ti. 2:25) in the mind and heart of the lost person."

​

God draws, attracts the lost with the lovingkindness shown by Christ high and lifted up.​

The Paraclete, or Helper, when He came, inspired Christ's disciples, with verbal and written testimony, to convict the world, fallen humanity, regarding sin, righteousness and judgment. 2 Timothy 2:25 teaches God must allow (grant) repentance rather than hardening the heart or the opposite of the claim.​

​

2) The lost need supernatural enablement to understand God's word and be guided to Christ. However, Galatians 3:24 teaches no such requirement for enablement, but rather God's word (the Law) can guide, like an escort, the lost to Christ.​

​

3) John 3:16 clearly teaches first be believe and then enter Christ, rather than the false claim, enter then believe.​

​

4) The usage of "see" in John 3:3 is to "experience" something, such as I have an appointment to "see" my doctor. The usage has nothing to do with being aware of the kingdom of God, the false claim of Calvinism. John 3:3-8 fully supports the sequence I provided.​

​

5) The false claim the lost do not need to be born anew before they are indwelt.​

God's way can be rejected and that is clearly not seeking after God, but seeking one's own way.

I suppose "seeking after God" would have to be defined by a higher authority for the truth to be known.

But either way I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth.

 

[Van]

Van, I think maybe Luke 13:24 could be misunderstood.

The many that seek to enter in and not able to are those who are not seeking to enter through the Blood of Christ.

They are not seeking God's way but another. Therefore they are not seeking God.

Any way you look at it they have missed the mark of seeking out God's will and way.

They are not seeking God, they are seeking their own way.

Sir, you are claiming God's word does not mean what it says. You are claiming only those who were saved were actually seeking God, that those seeking God by, say, works, were not actually seeking God. Fiddlesticks. The issue is some claim the lost never seek God, when God's word says many seek God. There is a huge difference between seek but do not find, and do not find so they never really sought. It is a rewrite Sir.

 

[Van]

God's way can be rejected and that is clearly not seeking after God, but seeking one's own way.

I suppose "seeking after God" would have to be defined by a higher authority for the truth to be known.

But either way I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth.

We do not need a "higher authority" we have God's word. I suppose you are aware of the many verses that teach the lost were seeking God.
Recall the rich young ruler, who was seeking eternal life, but was unwilling to fully commit to Christ by selling his possessions. He was unwilling to make Christ the overriding priority of his life, but he sought God's blessing, thus had some spiritual ability.

I could go on and list several verses where people sought God but were not saved, such as Romans 9:30-33. You probably were just rewrite all of them to support the false claim that none of the lost ever seek God.

 

[Charlie24]

Sir, you are claiming God's word does not mean what it says. You are claiming only those who were saved were actually seeking God, that those seeking God by, say, works, were not actually seeking God. Fiddlesticks. The issue is some claim the lost never seek God, when God's word says many seek God. There is a huge difference between seek but do not find, and do not find so they never really sought. It is a rewrite Sir.

1 Cor. 2:14

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

The natural man is the lost man, he cannot seek out the things of God because he is spiritually discerned This is why God must come to man first.

Now Van, you comment on this all you like, but there it is in plain English.

 

[Van]

1 Cor. 2:14

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

The natural man is the lost man, he cannot seek out the things of God because he is spiritually discerned This is why God must come to man first.

Now Van, you comment on this all you like, but there it is in plain English.

No there it is not in any respectable translation. Say there are two kinds of things of the Spirit of God, spiritual milk and spiritual solid food. And say I must be indwelt, to be able to understand spiritual solid food. Now can I say, the natural person, non-indwelt, cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God, referring only to spiritual solid food, but not referring to spiritual milk? Yes.

Look at the context, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. Why did Paul speak to men of flesh (non-indwelt) using spiritual milk if they could not understand spiritual milk? Why couldn't new Christs, having been indwelt only for a short time, need spiritual milk, not solid food? Because they had not yet matured to the point where they could understand spiritual solid food, just like those who had not been indwelt.

It is all there in plain English.