But do you see my point? How that certain things are derived from Scripture but not necessarily spelled out.
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Penalsubstitutionism.
- Thread starter JonC
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But do you see my point? How that certain things are derived from Scripture but not necessarily spelled out.
I'm a dispensationalist, I can go through the OT and without a doubt see different dispensations in time where God dealt differently with man.
That's not written in Scripture, it's what's derived from Scripture. I could go on and on.
I already grant not everything we may believe is spelled out in Scripture.
BUT the issue I have is foundational doctrines and doctrines upon which other doctrines are built.
I believe the Atonement is at the core of our faith.
Again when we get to secondary issues I agree.
That said, the fact God worked on dispensations is in the text of Scripture. You are talking about whether it should be applied more broadly (same with covenants).
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I'm more concerned with the narrow gate and how we pass through it than any doctrine.
The doctrines that lead us away from that narrow gate should be at the top of our list.
I as well. That is what concerned me when someone kept insisting Penal Substitution Theory had to be right because most Baptist's hold it.
But how far can one stray from Scripture on doctrines so important as the Atonement before it goes too far?
Don't get me wrong, I know many here (most?) Insist that believing we should stay with "what is written" to be missing what Scripture "teaches". I get that. When I posted my belief a couple of years ago I was condemned for "just posting what Scripture says" and not "explaining" what they really mean. I believe that they mean what is stated.
But how far is too far? Is Jehovah Witness doctrine "too far"? (I believe so). What about Seventh Day Adventists?
And how much is too far in terms of doctrine but not too far as to mean people are not saved? I'd place Roman Catholic doctrine here (the doctrine is not Christian, but Catholics are saved despite their doctrine...the gospel is still there).
This last part is where I place Penal Substitution Theory. It is reformed Roman Catholic Doctrine, it is unbiblical, but the gospel is there. Penal Substitution theorists can be Christians, but it is despite their philosophy (it is because of Christ).
The reason I believe this is I was saved prior to and while believing the Theory.
That said, and granting Penal Substitution theorists can also be Christian, there is so much of Scripture they miss by prioritizing what some men thought Scripture taught over what is written in Scripture. It redefines redemption, minimizes sin, and diminishes the Cross.
So it is still a very serious issue even if salvation itself is not negated by the teaching.
Here's the way I see it , Jon, and I see no diminishing of the Cross whatsoever.
Paul told us that Christ paid a ransom for us. Now you can define ransom as you please, but the fact is a ransom involves the setting free of one by another in some form. We have been set free from "the wages of sin is death."
Notice the word "wages" meaning we have earned death through our sin. So the word "ransom" and "wages" implies we have earned something that requires a ransom to be paid, being we have no way to set ourselves free from what we have earned.
There is a price to paid, and we can't pay it, it's impossible for us to pay it. So what does God do? Does He destroy man and start over?
He provided a substitute to pay the price for us, to step in and provide the ransom we must have to be set free.
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Before the foundation of the world God created and ordained 2 Laws that Paul discusses in Romans 8.
They are the 2 Laws that all Laws stem from, that every creature in the universe must obey, including God Himself.
!) The Law of Sin and Death.
2) The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
There is no option to these 2 Laws. This is where God demands payment or else!
There are several things from Scripture that help me to see the payment for sin.
Several come from the life of David, here's just one of them.
Remember when the prophet came to David and told him of a man in the kingdom who had just one little lamb.
The man loved and provided for that one lamb, and another man, which had many lambs came and took that one lamb from him.
David flew into a rage and said, As the Lord lives, this man will surly be put to death.
And the prophet said, you are the man! This is referring to David's adultery with Bathsheba.
David's first response, "I have sinned against God." This was David's response many times when he realized he had sinned. The reason God said of him, "the man after my own heart."
He placed God first in his repentance, and sought to make it right with God first.
All the sins David committed in the situation with Uriah and Bathsheba cost him a price. He paid dearly for those mistakes, and God made sure of it, even though he repented in tears and sorrow.
Sin carries a price tag, and the cost is always more than we can afford to pay.
The reason we need to be ransomed, or there is no hope.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
"The Calvinistic theory of the Atonement is, that in the sufferings and death of Christ, He incurred the Penalty of the sins of those whose substitute He was, so that He made a real Satisfaction to the Justice of God for the Law which they had broken. On this account, God now Pardons all their sins, and being fully Reconciled to them, His Electing Love flows out freely towards them.
"The Doctrine as thus taught involves the following points:
"I. That the Sufferings and Death of Christ were a real Atonement.
"II. That in making it Christ became the Substitute of those whom He came to save.
"III. That as such He Bore the Penalty of their Transgressions.
"IV. That in so doing He made ample Satisfaction to the demands of the Law, and to the Justice of God.
"V. That thus an actual Reconciliation has been made between them and God."
As to: "I. That the Sufferings and Death of Christ were a real Atonement."
"It is clearly taught that by Christ's sacrificial death was made an offering for sin which actually secured the pardon of the sinner.
"The prophets of old spake of it in this wise.
"Thus in Isaiah 53:6, 10, 11. "All we like sheep have gone astray, . . . and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . . Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, . . . He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many: and he shall bear their iniquities."
"The points here are: (1.) Our sins are laid on him. (2.) he is afflicted. (3.) He is made an offering for sin. (4.) Thus he justifies many (not all,--and why these?), because "he shall bear their iniquities."
"Daniel 9:24, 26. "Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sin, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in ever-lasting righteousness, . . . And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing."
"The New Testament teaching corresponds with that of the Old.
"John 1:29. The announcement of the Messiah by John shows that the sacrifice of Christ was the prominent work of his life. "Behold, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world." The same announcement was made again the next day.
"John 6:51. The Saviour says, "the bread which I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world."
"The above are positive declarations. We must take them in the fulness of the declaration made. It may be necessary to show how these expressions are applicable only to some and not to every individual in the world, to avoid the error of Universalism, but they distinctly declare of all to whom they may be applied that sin was taken away and life given by the atonement.
"Matt. 20:28. "The Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
"Matt. 26:28. "This is my blood of the Covenant which is shed for many unto remission of sins."
"Acts 20:28. "The church of God which he purchased with his own blood."
"Romans 5:10. "We were reconciled to God through the death of his Son."
"2 Cor. 5:18, 19. "But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation; To-wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation."
"Eph. 5:2. "Christ . . . gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for an odour of a sweet smell."
"Col. 1:14, 19, 22. "In whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of sins. . . . For it was the good pleasure of the Father that in him should all the fulness dwell; And, through him to reconcile all things unto himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross; through him I say, whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens. And you being in time past alienated and enemies in your mind in your evil works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreprovable before him." This passage includes all the points under the head we are now discussing. We have here a sacrifice by Christ in his death; through his blood peace is effected, and forgiveness of sins; not the means, but the things themselves; actual forgiveness, actual peace.
"The whole Epistle to the Hebrews is proof upon this point.
"1 Peter 1:18-20. "Knowing that ye were redeemed, not, etc., but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, even the blood of Christ."
"1 John 2:2. "He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world."
"1 John 4:10. "God sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
"The passages adduced will suffice to show that Christ's work was a real sacrifice; that by his blood he procured pardon, peace, redemption and remission of sins for those whom he represented. How many or how few these are does not here affect the question. The work here done was a sacrifice and was completely accomplished."
From:
www.reformedreader.org
"The Doctrine as thus taught involves the following points:
"I. That the Sufferings and Death of Christ were a real Atonement.
"II. That in making it Christ became the Substitute of those whom He came to save.
"III. That as such He Bore the Penalty of their Transgressions.
"IV. That in so doing He made ample Satisfaction to the demands of the Law, and to the Justice of God.
"V. That thus an actual Reconciliation has been made between them and God."
As to: "I. That the Sufferings and Death of Christ were a real Atonement."
"It is clearly taught that by Christ's sacrificial death was made an offering for sin which actually secured the pardon of the sinner.
"The prophets of old spake of it in this wise.
"Thus in Isaiah 53:6, 10, 11. "All we like sheep have gone astray, . . . and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . . Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, . . . He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many: and he shall bear their iniquities."
"The points here are: (1.) Our sins are laid on him. (2.) he is afflicted. (3.) He is made an offering for sin. (4.) Thus he justifies many (not all,--and why these?), because "he shall bear their iniquities."
"Daniel 9:24, 26. "Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sin, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in ever-lasting righteousness, . . . And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing."
"The New Testament teaching corresponds with that of the Old.
"John 1:29. The announcement of the Messiah by John shows that the sacrifice of Christ was the prominent work of his life. "Behold, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world." The same announcement was made again the next day.
"John 6:51. The Saviour says, "the bread which I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world."
"The above are positive declarations. We must take them in the fulness of the declaration made. It may be necessary to show how these expressions are applicable only to some and not to every individual in the world, to avoid the error of Universalism, but they distinctly declare of all to whom they may be applied that sin was taken away and life given by the atonement.
"Matt. 20:28. "The Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
"Matt. 26:28. "This is my blood of the Covenant which is shed for many unto remission of sins."
"Acts 20:28. "The church of God which he purchased with his own blood."
"Romans 5:10. "We were reconciled to God through the death of his Son."
"2 Cor. 5:18, 19. "But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation; To-wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation."
"Eph. 5:2. "Christ . . . gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for an odour of a sweet smell."
"Col. 1:14, 19, 22. "In whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of sins. . . . For it was the good pleasure of the Father that in him should all the fulness dwell; And, through him to reconcile all things unto himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross; through him I say, whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens. And you being in time past alienated and enemies in your mind in your evil works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreprovable before him." This passage includes all the points under the head we are now discussing. We have here a sacrifice by Christ in his death; through his blood peace is effected, and forgiveness of sins; not the means, but the things themselves; actual forgiveness, actual peace.
"The whole Epistle to the Hebrews is proof upon this point.
"1 Peter 1:18-20. "Knowing that ye were redeemed, not, etc., but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, even the blood of Christ."
"1 John 2:2. "He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world."
"1 John 4:10. "God sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
"The passages adduced will suffice to show that Christ's work was a real sacrifice; that by his blood he procured pardon, peace, redemption and remission of sins for those whom he represented. How many or how few these are does not here affect the question. The work here done was a sacrifice and was completely accomplished."
From:
Abstract of Systematic Theology, James P. Boyce | The Reformed Reader
The Reformed Reader is committed to the historic Baptist and Reformed faith. Learn and research Baptist history, doctrine, theology and biographies.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
"II. In order to make this Atonement
Christ became the Substitute of those whom He came to save."
"Here, also, we may refer to the position in this respect occupied by the offering under the Mosaic laws, as well as to the general notion of sacrifice.
"The language of Job 1:1-5 indicates that he recognized the fact that substitutes might be put, and would be accepted in the place of those who were guilty of offences to God. And this may be taken as evidence of the usually received opinion before the segregation of Israel, as well as of that among the Gentiles subsequent to that event.
"But the declarations of God as to the Levitical sacrifices and the method of their observance exhibit this more clearly.
"In the first chapter of Leviticus God gives to Moses directions, as to the offering of sacrifices by the people: among other things he says, verse 4, of the individual making the offering; "He shall lay his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him."
"This is the substitution of the victim. We have in Leviticus 10:17, where Moses blames Eleazar and Ithamar, the sons of Aaron, for neglecting to eat the sin offering, the declaration of the substitution which took place in the priest. Christ bore both offices.
"Wherefore have ye not eaten the sin offering in the place of the sanctuary, seeing it is most holy, and He hath given it you to bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord?"
"Both these cases are mentioned to show that there was a substitution of the priest, and one of the victim. It was in the latter sense that Christ bore the sins of the people and made atonement.
"The account of the scape goat, in Leviticus 16:20-22, furnishes another instance of substitution, which, as another use will be made of it, is not referred to here at length. It is, however, a signal example of such a substitution, as put an animal in the place of Israel, and made him, as their substitute, to bear their iniquities.
"These declarations of the substitution of the victim are numerous in Exodus and Leviticus, and are referred to in all the Mosaic books. They, therefore, made familiar to the Jewish people the notion of substitution, and impressed upon them the need of a victim, for the making of atonement, who should actually stand in the place of those who were to be atoned for. The language of the Scriptures as to Christ, therefore, could not have been otherwise understood. As used by the Prophets, by John the Baptist, and by the inspired writers of the New Testament it must have been intended to make this impression, which must inevitably have been produced. So much is this so, that the prophetic language of Isaiah, relative to Christ's sufferings, was felt to be so completely fulfilled in them, that almost all the language in the New Testament, which speaks of his atonement, is tinged by the expressions there used.
"Let us look at the 53d chapter of Isaiah, then, as indicative of the teachings of the sacrifices, and of the work foretold to be accomplished.
"The whole chapter speaks of substitution and inflicted penalty. The following passages refer to substitution:
"Verses 4 and 5. "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
"Verse 6. "The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
"Verse 11. "By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many: and he shall bear their iniquities."
"Verse 12. "He bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
"The following passages show that the New Testament recognized the fulfilment of these prophecies, and that in Christ was found the antitype of the sacrifices of old in this respect.
"Matt. 20:28. "The Son of man came . . . to give his life a ransom for many."
"Matt. 26:28. "This is my blood of the covenant, which is shed for many unto remission of sins."
"John 11:47-52 gives an account of a council among the Jews, in which a certain remark was made by Caiaphas, which the Evangelist claims as a prophecy and applies to Jesus.
"See verses 49-52. "But a certain one of them, Calaphas, being high priest that year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, nor do ye take account that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. Now this he said not of himself: but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation; and not for the nation only, but that he might also gather into one the children of God that were scattered abroad."
"Rom. 5:8. "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us."
"Rom. 8:32. "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all."
"2 Cor. 5:21. "Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our own behalf."
"Gal. 1:3, 4. "Our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins.
"Gal. 3:13. "Having become a curse for us."
"Eph. 5:2. "Christ also loved you, and gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God, for an odour of a sweet smell."
"1 Thess. 5:9, 10. "For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."
"1 Tim. 2:5, 6. "For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony to be borne in its own times."
Christ became the Substitute of those whom He came to save."
"Here, also, we may refer to the position in this respect occupied by the offering under the Mosaic laws, as well as to the general notion of sacrifice.
"The language of Job 1:1-5 indicates that he recognized the fact that substitutes might be put, and would be accepted in the place of those who were guilty of offences to God. And this may be taken as evidence of the usually received opinion before the segregation of Israel, as well as of that among the Gentiles subsequent to that event.
"But the declarations of God as to the Levitical sacrifices and the method of their observance exhibit this more clearly.
"In the first chapter of Leviticus God gives to Moses directions, as to the offering of sacrifices by the people: among other things he says, verse 4, of the individual making the offering; "He shall lay his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him."
"This is the substitution of the victim. We have in Leviticus 10:17, where Moses blames Eleazar and Ithamar, the sons of Aaron, for neglecting to eat the sin offering, the declaration of the substitution which took place in the priest. Christ bore both offices.
"Wherefore have ye not eaten the sin offering in the place of the sanctuary, seeing it is most holy, and He hath given it you to bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord?"
"Both these cases are mentioned to show that there was a substitution of the priest, and one of the victim. It was in the latter sense that Christ bore the sins of the people and made atonement.
"The account of the scape goat, in Leviticus 16:20-22, furnishes another instance of substitution, which, as another use will be made of it, is not referred to here at length. It is, however, a signal example of such a substitution, as put an animal in the place of Israel, and made him, as their substitute, to bear their iniquities.
"These declarations of the substitution of the victim are numerous in Exodus and Leviticus, and are referred to in all the Mosaic books. They, therefore, made familiar to the Jewish people the notion of substitution, and impressed upon them the need of a victim, for the making of atonement, who should actually stand in the place of those who were to be atoned for. The language of the Scriptures as to Christ, therefore, could not have been otherwise understood. As used by the Prophets, by John the Baptist, and by the inspired writers of the New Testament it must have been intended to make this impression, which must inevitably have been produced. So much is this so, that the prophetic language of Isaiah, relative to Christ's sufferings, was felt to be so completely fulfilled in them, that almost all the language in the New Testament, which speaks of his atonement, is tinged by the expressions there used.
"Let us look at the 53d chapter of Isaiah, then, as indicative of the teachings of the sacrifices, and of the work foretold to be accomplished.
"The whole chapter speaks of substitution and inflicted penalty. The following passages refer to substitution:
"Verses 4 and 5. "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
"Verse 6. "The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
"Verse 11. "By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many: and he shall bear their iniquities."
"Verse 12. "He bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
"The following passages show that the New Testament recognized the fulfilment of these prophecies, and that in Christ was found the antitype of the sacrifices of old in this respect.
"Matt. 20:28. "The Son of man came . . . to give his life a ransom for many."
"Matt. 26:28. "This is my blood of the covenant, which is shed for many unto remission of sins."
"John 11:47-52 gives an account of a council among the Jews, in which a certain remark was made by Caiaphas, which the Evangelist claims as a prophecy and applies to Jesus.
"See verses 49-52. "But a certain one of them, Calaphas, being high priest that year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, nor do ye take account that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. Now this he said not of himself: but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation; and not for the nation only, but that he might also gather into one the children of God that were scattered abroad."
"Rom. 5:8. "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us."
"Rom. 8:32. "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all."
"2 Cor. 5:21. "Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our own behalf."
"Gal. 1:3, 4. "Our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins.
"Gal. 3:13. "Having become a curse for us."
"Eph. 5:2. "Christ also loved you, and gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God, for an odour of a sweet smell."
"1 Thess. 5:9, 10. "For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."
"1 Tim. 2:5, 6. "For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony to be borne in its own times."
I know you see no diminishing of the Cross, no dim8nishing of sin, e5c. Otherwise you would not be a penal substitution theorist.
What passage are you pointing to about there being a "price to be paid"? I need context here.
We are purchased, not our sins.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
III. In so offering himself, Christ actually bore the penalty of the transgressions of those for whom he was substituted.
"1. This point is involved in the two that have preceded it, and consequently may be argued from the evidence afforded by them. These points mutually confirm each other. Thus, in bearing the penalty, he appears to have been substituted for us and to have been made a sacrifice. In being made a sacrifice, he has been substituted and has borne the penalty. We may, therefore, present all the proofs that Christ was a sacrifice, and was the substitute for our sins, as so much in favor of the fact that he bore the penalty of transgression.
"But we may otherwise learn from the Scriptures themselves that this penalty was actually borne by Christ. It is taught:
"2. In those passages in which Christ is represented as having home our iniquities. The meaning of this clause is definitely fixed by the Scripture usage. In the following passages this phrase is applied to Christ:
"Isaiah 53:6. "The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
"Isaiah 53:11. "By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many, and he shall bear their iniquities."
"Isaiah 53:12. "He was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bare the sin of many."
"Heb. 9:28. "Having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time apart from sin, to them that wait for him unto salvation."
"1 Peter 2:24. "Who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree."
"The following passages show that the phrase "to bear iniquity" means to bear the penalty of iniquity.
"Lev. 5:1. "And if any one sin in that he heareth the voice of adjuration, he being a witness, whether he hath seen or known, if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity."
"Lev. 5:17. "And if any one sin and do any of the things which the Lord hath commanded not to be done; though he know it not, yet is he guilty and shall bear his iniquity."
"Lev. 7:18. "If any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity."
"Lev. 19:8. "But every one that eateth it shall bear his iniquity, because he hath profaned the holy thing of the Lord: and that soul shall be cut off from his people."
"Lev. 24:15. "And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin."
"Numbers 14:34. "After the number of the days in which ye spied out the land, even forty days for every day a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my alienation."
"Ezekiel 18:20. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son."
"Ezekiel 44:10, 12. "But the Levites that went far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray from me after their idols; they shall bear their iniquity." "Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and became a stumbling block of iniquity unto the house of Israel; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord God, and they shall hear their iniquity." [See Magee on the Atonement, vol. 1, pp. 200-220, for an able and learned discussion of the meaning of the phrase "bear iniquity."]
"2. Another class of passages shows that Christ bore the penalty of sin by representing him as suffering because of it, and as bearing the penalty attached to it. Such passages used as to an innocent person show that he bore the penalty for others, but in most it is distinctly declared that it was for his people.
"Suffering is of three kinds: (1.) Calamity or misfortune, which has no reference to sin. (2.) Chastisement, which is designed for the improvement of the sufferer. (3.) Punishment or penalty, which is designed for satisfaction to justice. The language of Scripture shows that the sufferings of Christ were of the last class.
"(1.) That class of passages which represents Christ as suffering because of our sin, or that his sufferings were connected with our sins.
"The passage in Isaiah 53:4, 5 is a signal example. "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
"In accordance with this vision of the prophet we have the accounts given in the New Testament.
"Rom. 4:25. "Who was delivered up for our trespasses."
"Heb. 13:12. "Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered without the gate."
"1 Pet. 2:24. "Who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree."
"1 Pet. 3:18. "Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God."
"More passages might he given were it not that the Scriptures more frequently state the nature of this connection, and they will be quoted in the succeeding class under this head.
"(2.) The second class of passages which treats of the connection of Christ's sufferings with our sins is that which represents those sufferings as the penalty of our sins, or which declares that Christ bore that penalty.
"The penalty which Christ bore for us, includes all the suffering which he endured on our behalf. It is not confined to any one act of his life, but, as those sufferings culminated in the agony of the cross, the penalty is spoken of chiefly as borne there. His previous sufferings, the miseries to which he was subjected, and the evils he endured, were but as the beginning, and a small beginning of the penalty which he there completed.
"The penalty due for our transgressions was death, the full meaning of which is only foreshadowed to us by the death of the body. Added to this is the separation from God, by reason of the moral death which ensued from sin, and the condition of condemnation for sin. The former must be eternal, unless restoration to God is effected. The latter involves eternal death in its mere execution.
"Christ bore the guilt of those for whom He died, and thus it became fit that upon Him God should inflict the Penalty.
"The result has been the removal of Condemnation and the Reconciliation effected between us and God. In the removal of these evils Eternal Death is taken away..."
"1. This point is involved in the two that have preceded it, and consequently may be argued from the evidence afforded by them. These points mutually confirm each other. Thus, in bearing the penalty, he appears to have been substituted for us and to have been made a sacrifice. In being made a sacrifice, he has been substituted and has borne the penalty. We may, therefore, present all the proofs that Christ was a sacrifice, and was the substitute for our sins, as so much in favor of the fact that he bore the penalty of transgression.
"But we may otherwise learn from the Scriptures themselves that this penalty was actually borne by Christ. It is taught:
"2. In those passages in which Christ is represented as having home our iniquities. The meaning of this clause is definitely fixed by the Scripture usage. In the following passages this phrase is applied to Christ:
"Isaiah 53:6. "The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
"Isaiah 53:11. "By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many, and he shall bear their iniquities."
"Isaiah 53:12. "He was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bare the sin of many."
"Heb. 9:28. "Having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time apart from sin, to them that wait for him unto salvation."
"1 Peter 2:24. "Who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree."
"The following passages show that the phrase "to bear iniquity" means to bear the penalty of iniquity.
"Lev. 5:1. "And if any one sin in that he heareth the voice of adjuration, he being a witness, whether he hath seen or known, if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity."
"Lev. 5:17. "And if any one sin and do any of the things which the Lord hath commanded not to be done; though he know it not, yet is he guilty and shall bear his iniquity."
"Lev. 7:18. "If any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity."
"Lev. 19:8. "But every one that eateth it shall bear his iniquity, because he hath profaned the holy thing of the Lord: and that soul shall be cut off from his people."
"Lev. 24:15. "And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin."
"Numbers 14:34. "After the number of the days in which ye spied out the land, even forty days for every day a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my alienation."
"Ezekiel 18:20. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son."
"Ezekiel 44:10, 12. "But the Levites that went far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray from me after their idols; they shall bear their iniquity." "Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and became a stumbling block of iniquity unto the house of Israel; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord God, and they shall hear their iniquity." [See Magee on the Atonement, vol. 1, pp. 200-220, for an able and learned discussion of the meaning of the phrase "bear iniquity."]
"2. Another class of passages shows that Christ bore the penalty of sin by representing him as suffering because of it, and as bearing the penalty attached to it. Such passages used as to an innocent person show that he bore the penalty for others, but in most it is distinctly declared that it was for his people.
"Suffering is of three kinds: (1.) Calamity or misfortune, which has no reference to sin. (2.) Chastisement, which is designed for the improvement of the sufferer. (3.) Punishment or penalty, which is designed for satisfaction to justice. The language of Scripture shows that the sufferings of Christ were of the last class.
"(1.) That class of passages which represents Christ as suffering because of our sin, or that his sufferings were connected with our sins.
"The passage in Isaiah 53:4, 5 is a signal example. "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
"In accordance with this vision of the prophet we have the accounts given in the New Testament.
"Rom. 4:25. "Who was delivered up for our trespasses."
"Heb. 13:12. "Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered without the gate."
"1 Pet. 2:24. "Who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree."
"1 Pet. 3:18. "Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God."
"More passages might he given were it not that the Scriptures more frequently state the nature of this connection, and they will be quoted in the succeeding class under this head.
"(2.) The second class of passages which treats of the connection of Christ's sufferings with our sins is that which represents those sufferings as the penalty of our sins, or which declares that Christ bore that penalty.
"The penalty which Christ bore for us, includes all the suffering which he endured on our behalf. It is not confined to any one act of his life, but, as those sufferings culminated in the agony of the cross, the penalty is spoken of chiefly as borne there. His previous sufferings, the miseries to which he was subjected, and the evils he endured, were but as the beginning, and a small beginning of the penalty which he there completed.
"The penalty due for our transgressions was death, the full meaning of which is only foreshadowed to us by the death of the body. Added to this is the separation from God, by reason of the moral death which ensued from sin, and the condition of condemnation for sin. The former must be eternal, unless restoration to God is effected. The latter involves eternal death in its mere execution.
"Christ bore the guilt of those for whom He died, and thus it became fit that upon Him God should inflict the Penalty.
"The result has been the removal of Condemnation and the Reconciliation effected between us and God. In the removal of these evils Eternal Death is taken away..."
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
"IV. We have thus seen;
(1) that the sufferings and death of Christ were a real atonement;
(2) that in making it Christ became the substitute of those whom he came to save;
(3) that as such he bore the penalty of their transgressions.
"From these the fourth point follows, that in so doing, he made ample satisfaction to the demands of the law, and to the justice of God.
"1. The very fact that he was the substitute of the sinner, and that he bore his penalty shows that the satisfaction he made was ample; Christ could have made none that was not. Anything he could do must be acceptable to God; for God delighteth in him. Any act of his must be of infinite value to accomplish any end for which he designed it. Any penalty borne by him must have found a victim fully sufficient to fulfil every demand. The very fact that he has been substituted and has borne the penalty, shows that he has made ample satisfaction.
"2. But this is also seen in the fact that the declaration is made that thus the demands of the law are fulfilled and not lowered. The language of Christ on this point is explicit.
"Matt. 5:17. "Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil."
"Rom. 7:1-6. The apostle argues that we are no longer bound to the law, but bound to Christ; that our obligations have been annulled, and that, henceforth, "we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were holden; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter." This whole argument implies and is based upon the idea that the law has been fulfilled for us by Christ, who has thus delivered us from the bondage of obligation, that we might serve with the spirit of love.
"Freedom from the law on our part, accompanied by the declaration that Christ came not to lower it, but to fulfil it, shows that in the atonement for us, he has made ample satisfaction for all our sins and failures, as well as secured for us complete righteousness by his perfect obedience.
"We may here add also the prophecy of Isaiah 42:21, "It pleased the Lord, for his righteousness sake, to magnify the law and make it honourable," and the fact that Christ is called "The Lord is our Righteousness," in Jeremiah 23:6, and also that the Apostle Paul in Philippians 3:7-11, renounces his own righteousness of the law that he might have that "which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." This fact implies a conviction of the ample extent of the righteousness which is by Christ.
"3. That an ample satisfaction is made to justice is seen also in the fact that mercy and justice are said to be reconciled in Christ. These are represented as antagonistic; mercy pleading for the sinner, and justice demanding his punishment; truth requiring the fulfilment of the threatened penalty, which is consistent with peace, only by the death of Christ.
"Psalm 85:10. "Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other."
"Isaiah 45:21. "There is no God else beside me, a just God and a Saviour."
"Isaiah 32:17. "And the work of righteousness shall be peace, and the effect of righteousness quietness and confidence forever." This is a wonder.
"The same fact seems to be declared in the song of the angels, on the plain of Bethlehem, Luke 2:14. "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men in whom he is well pleased."
"4. This is also seen in the approval which God gave to the work of Christ. Had that work not been satisfactory, we should not have expected the actual declarations of approval of it. That approval is evidenced.
"(1) By Christ's testimony to it. He tells us that he came to do the will of his Father; that his Father sent him not to condemn the world; but gave him, that whosoever believeth, might not perish but have everlasting life.
"(2) In the manifested expressions of approbation by God in the miracles by which Christ attested his mission, as well as by the witness of John.
"(3) In God's own words of approval, at his Baptism, at the Transfiguration on the Mount, and at other times.
"(4) In the angelic messengers sent to strengthen him in his work, and to minister to him after the temptation in the wilderness, and in the garden.
"(5) That most signal evidence, afforded, as is constantly declared, as a seal of approval, which is seen in the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.
"5. The ample character of this satisfaction is further seen in the declarations by the sacred writers of the certainty of the salvation that is based upon it. Every offer of salvation made is a passage in proof of this point. The words of the Commission, "He that believeth, and is baptized, shall be saved" (Mark 16:16), and the offer of the apostle, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house" (Acts 16:31), are positive affirmations.
"6. But it may be said that all of these points only prove God's approval of whatever was done by Christ, without showing that in that work satisfaction has been made. While this is not admitted, we find further proof in the sixth place in such passages as show that so ample has been the work of Christ that even a sinner is warranted to approach and claim salvation in Christ's name, and that God gives it as due to the merits and work of Christ.
"Heb. 4:16. "Let us therefore draw near with boldness unto the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and may find grace to help us in time of need."
"Heb. 10:19, 22. "having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, * * * let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith."
"Eph. 3:12. "In whom we have boldness and access, in confidence, through our faith in him."
"1 John 1:9. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
"7. The ample satisfaction of the atonement made is also seen in the fact that it is declared perfect for its end in the language of the Apostle in Heb. 9:25-28, where he argues the incompleteness of the Mosaic sacrifices, because they had to be offered more than once, and the perfection of Christ's, because "now once at the end of the ages, hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."
"And again in Chap. 10:10. "We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
"1 John 1:7. "The blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
(1) that the sufferings and death of Christ were a real atonement;
(2) that in making it Christ became the substitute of those whom he came to save;
(3) that as such he bore the penalty of their transgressions.
"From these the fourth point follows, that in so doing, he made ample satisfaction to the demands of the law, and to the justice of God.
"1. The very fact that he was the substitute of the sinner, and that he bore his penalty shows that the satisfaction he made was ample; Christ could have made none that was not. Anything he could do must be acceptable to God; for God delighteth in him. Any act of his must be of infinite value to accomplish any end for which he designed it. Any penalty borne by him must have found a victim fully sufficient to fulfil every demand. The very fact that he has been substituted and has borne the penalty, shows that he has made ample satisfaction.
"2. But this is also seen in the fact that the declaration is made that thus the demands of the law are fulfilled and not lowered. The language of Christ on this point is explicit.
"Matt. 5:17. "Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil."
"Rom. 7:1-6. The apostle argues that we are no longer bound to the law, but bound to Christ; that our obligations have been annulled, and that, henceforth, "we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were holden; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter." This whole argument implies and is based upon the idea that the law has been fulfilled for us by Christ, who has thus delivered us from the bondage of obligation, that we might serve with the spirit of love.
"Freedom from the law on our part, accompanied by the declaration that Christ came not to lower it, but to fulfil it, shows that in the atonement for us, he has made ample satisfaction for all our sins and failures, as well as secured for us complete righteousness by his perfect obedience.
"We may here add also the prophecy of Isaiah 42:21, "It pleased the Lord, for his righteousness sake, to magnify the law and make it honourable," and the fact that Christ is called "The Lord is our Righteousness," in Jeremiah 23:6, and also that the Apostle Paul in Philippians 3:7-11, renounces his own righteousness of the law that he might have that "which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." This fact implies a conviction of the ample extent of the righteousness which is by Christ.
"3. That an ample satisfaction is made to justice is seen also in the fact that mercy and justice are said to be reconciled in Christ. These are represented as antagonistic; mercy pleading for the sinner, and justice demanding his punishment; truth requiring the fulfilment of the threatened penalty, which is consistent with peace, only by the death of Christ.
"Psalm 85:10. "Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other."
"Isaiah 45:21. "There is no God else beside me, a just God and a Saviour."
"Isaiah 32:17. "And the work of righteousness shall be peace, and the effect of righteousness quietness and confidence forever." This is a wonder.
"The same fact seems to be declared in the song of the angels, on the plain of Bethlehem, Luke 2:14. "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men in whom he is well pleased."
"4. This is also seen in the approval which God gave to the work of Christ. Had that work not been satisfactory, we should not have expected the actual declarations of approval of it. That approval is evidenced.
"(1) By Christ's testimony to it. He tells us that he came to do the will of his Father; that his Father sent him not to condemn the world; but gave him, that whosoever believeth, might not perish but have everlasting life.
"(2) In the manifested expressions of approbation by God in the miracles by which Christ attested his mission, as well as by the witness of John.
"(3) In God's own words of approval, at his Baptism, at the Transfiguration on the Mount, and at other times.
"(4) In the angelic messengers sent to strengthen him in his work, and to minister to him after the temptation in the wilderness, and in the garden.
"(5) That most signal evidence, afforded, as is constantly declared, as a seal of approval, which is seen in the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.
"5. The ample character of this satisfaction is further seen in the declarations by the sacred writers of the certainty of the salvation that is based upon it. Every offer of salvation made is a passage in proof of this point. The words of the Commission, "He that believeth, and is baptized, shall be saved" (Mark 16:16), and the offer of the apostle, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house" (Acts 16:31), are positive affirmations.
"6. But it may be said that all of these points only prove God's approval of whatever was done by Christ, without showing that in that work satisfaction has been made. While this is not admitted, we find further proof in the sixth place in such passages as show that so ample has been the work of Christ that even a sinner is warranted to approach and claim salvation in Christ's name, and that God gives it as due to the merits and work of Christ.
"Heb. 4:16. "Let us therefore draw near with boldness unto the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and may find grace to help us in time of need."
"Heb. 10:19, 22. "having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, * * * let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith."
"Eph. 3:12. "In whom we have boldness and access, in confidence, through our faith in him."
"1 John 1:9. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
"7. The ample satisfaction of the atonement made is also seen in the fact that it is declared perfect for its end in the language of the Apostle in Heb. 9:25-28, where he argues the incompleteness of the Mosaic sacrifices, because they had to be offered more than once, and the perfection of Christ's, because "now once at the end of the ages, hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."
"And again in Chap. 10:10. "We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
"1 John 1:7. "The blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
You are making far too many assumptions and imposing far too much onto Scripture.
What if the Old Testament sacrificial system was a more exact picture of the Cross than you are allowing?
I agree with the passages you have provided.
Isaiah 53 does, as I pointed out, speak of Christ as a representative of the human race who saves many.
Jesus did bear our sins. He did carry our sorrows. And He was esteemed stricken of God, but His wounds were for our transgressions. It is by His stripes we are healed. God did lay our iniquity on Him. He did give H8s life for many. He was made sin for us. He died for our sins.
The problem with Penal Substitution Theory is what it adds to God's Word (no penal substitution theorist can claim to be sola scriptura with any integrity).
Calvin made a mistake on two points.
First he sought to reform Aquinas' theory by replacing merit with divine justice rather than going back to Scripture (this is understandable due to tradition).
Second, he was a student of humanistic judicial philosophy studying law. You can read "penal substitution theory" in Calvin's secular writings prior to his conversion to Christianity. Calvin applied this philosophy to the Atonement.
There are NO passages that state the points of Penal Substitution Theory. The best people can do is give a bunch of verses and then tell you what they believe they teach.
I believe those passages teach what is written.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
"V. The fifth point to be shown, is that by this work an actual Reconciliation has been effected.
"1. The points already proved show this. If an atonement has been made by one who was actually substituted in the place of the guilty; who, as so substituted, paid the penalty and rendered full satisfaction to the law, so that the law has no longer any claims; then there has been undoubtedly an actual reconciliation. Peace has been made by the cross between God and man.
"2. The plain declarations of Scripture are, that God has been reconciled to us by Christ.
"Rom. 5:10. "For, if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." Similar declarations are found in 2 Cor. 5:19; Eph. 2:13, 16, 17; Col. 1:20-22. They are not given at length, because they will have to be presented immediately for another purpose.
"It may be said that reconciliation is admitted, but that this means only a method of reconciliation.
"3. Therefore it must be shown that actual reconciliation has been made, from what the Scriptures say of the purpose had in view in reconciliation, which was actually to save, not to make salvation possible.
"Luke 19:10. "For the Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost."
"2 Cor. 5:21. "Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him."
"Gal. 1:4. "Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of this present evil world, according to the will of our God and Father."
"Gal. 4:4, 5. "God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, that he might redeem them which were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."
"1 Tim. 1:15. "Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am the chief."
"The purpose of God is thus seen, not to make salvation possible, but actually to save, to redeem, to make righteous, &c.
"Still it may be said, that this purpose might be effected by a method of reconciliation.
"4. But the Scriptures, in speaking of what is actually effected by Christ's work for those who are reconciled by it, show that the reconciliation was actually made in that work itself. The time at which it was done, and what was done at that time show this.
"Rom. 5:10. "For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled shall we be saved by his life." The time was, "while we were enemies," at the time of Christ's death. The application of salvation follows this reconciliation.
"Gal. 3:13. "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us."
"Eph. 1:7. "In whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses according to the riches of his grace."
"Eph. 2:14-16. "For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition, having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the twain one new man, so making peace; and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."
"Col. 1:20. "And through him to reconcile all things unto himself; having made peace through the blood of his cross.
"1 Thess. 1:10. "Even Jesus, which delivereth us from the wrath to come."
" Peter 1:18, 19. "Knowing that ye were redeemed, not with corruptible things . . . but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot."
"All these passages speak of these effects, as actually accomplished by Christ, in his death upon the cross. [See Hodge's Outlines, p. 314, 1st Edition.]
"5. The connection between the gift of the Spirit and the work of Christ shows, that there has been actual reconciliation. The promise of the Spirit to us is made, and that Spirit is given, as a reward of Christ's death. That death is declared to have this gift as one of the purposes to be effected by it.
"Acts 2:33. "Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear." This shows that the gift of the Spirit is the result of Christ's exaltation, which was also taught by Christ, when he said that, unless he went away, the Spirit could not come.
"Gal. 3:13, 14. "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, . . . that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
"Titus 3:5, 6. "He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour."
"These passages show that,
"(1) The Gift of the Spirit was Purchased by Christ's death.
"(2) That that Gift Secures actual salvation.
"(3) That it must be Given to all for whom He has died.
"(4) That in that death actual Reconciliation is consequently Secured."
"1. The points already proved show this. If an atonement has been made by one who was actually substituted in the place of the guilty; who, as so substituted, paid the penalty and rendered full satisfaction to the law, so that the law has no longer any claims; then there has been undoubtedly an actual reconciliation. Peace has been made by the cross between God and man.
"2. The plain declarations of Scripture are, that God has been reconciled to us by Christ.
"Rom. 5:10. "For, if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." Similar declarations are found in 2 Cor. 5:19; Eph. 2:13, 16, 17; Col. 1:20-22. They are not given at length, because they will have to be presented immediately for another purpose.
"It may be said that reconciliation is admitted, but that this means only a method of reconciliation.
"3. Therefore it must be shown that actual reconciliation has been made, from what the Scriptures say of the purpose had in view in reconciliation, which was actually to save, not to make salvation possible.
"Luke 19:10. "For the Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost."
"2 Cor. 5:21. "Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him."
"Gal. 1:4. "Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of this present evil world, according to the will of our God and Father."
"Gal. 4:4, 5. "God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, that he might redeem them which were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."
"1 Tim. 1:15. "Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am the chief."
"The purpose of God is thus seen, not to make salvation possible, but actually to save, to redeem, to make righteous, &c.
"Still it may be said, that this purpose might be effected by a method of reconciliation.
"4. But the Scriptures, in speaking of what is actually effected by Christ's work for those who are reconciled by it, show that the reconciliation was actually made in that work itself. The time at which it was done, and what was done at that time show this.
"Rom. 5:10. "For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled shall we be saved by his life." The time was, "while we were enemies," at the time of Christ's death. The application of salvation follows this reconciliation.
"Gal. 3:13. "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us."
"Eph. 1:7. "In whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses according to the riches of his grace."
"Eph. 2:14-16. "For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition, having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the twain one new man, so making peace; and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."
"Col. 1:20. "And through him to reconcile all things unto himself; having made peace through the blood of his cross.
"1 Thess. 1:10. "Even Jesus, which delivereth us from the wrath to come."
" Peter 1:18, 19. "Knowing that ye were redeemed, not with corruptible things . . . but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot."
"All these passages speak of these effects, as actually accomplished by Christ, in his death upon the cross. [See Hodge's Outlines, p. 314, 1st Edition.]
"5. The connection between the gift of the Spirit and the work of Christ shows, that there has been actual reconciliation. The promise of the Spirit to us is made, and that Spirit is given, as a reward of Christ's death. That death is declared to have this gift as one of the purposes to be effected by it.
"Acts 2:33. "Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear." This shows that the gift of the Spirit is the result of Christ's exaltation, which was also taught by Christ, when he said that, unless he went away, the Spirit could not come.
"Gal. 3:13, 14. "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, . . . that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
"Titus 3:5, 6. "He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour."
"These passages show that,
"(1) The Gift of the Spirit was Purchased by Christ's death.
"(2) That that Gift Secures actual salvation.
"(3) That it must be Given to all for whom He has died.
"(4) That in that death actual Reconciliation is consequently Secured."
I think you are posting a lot of verses to obscure the fact that none of them actually state what you believe.
I understand what you think those verses teach.
I am saying that so important a doctrine is in "what is written" and we do not have to rely on human theories.
But I am "sola scriptura". I believe God gave us these "foundational" doctrines in His Word. People may disagree concerning interpretation but this is not what you are doing. Rather than an interpretation you are giving us a theory....a philosophy....and going to Scripture to try and support it.
Why not just trust God's Word?
Again.....we get your philosophy.
We all know Penal Substitution Theory.
The problem remains.
The Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is not in God's Word.
Penal Substitution Theory is what some belueve is taught by the Bible.
The difference us in approaches to Scripture.
I believe "what is written". I can look at the verses you have posted and say "that is what I believe".
You believe "what you think is taught". You look to the explanations and additions to God's Word and say "that's what I believe".
We simply hold different standards.
I believe God's Word is perfect and complete in "what is written".
You look to men who you like to tell you what God's Wird "really" means.
I can test my doctrine against God's Word. You cannot.
You are forced to test your faith against what men who agree with you tells you is taught.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
If anybody in The History of Spiritual Realities ever HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD,
YOU, MR. JD731 HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!!
BTAINED RIGHTEOUSNESS BY LIVING PERFECTLY UNDER THE LAW
And Jesus Righteous Life was then Given to Satisfy The Wrath of God that would have been Poured Out throughout an Endless Eternity in The Lake of Fire, BY THE SINNER.
There has to be the acknowledgment of the Reality of sin that can not just be skipped or said that God can erase it all He wants, without a Real Atonement Paid for it.
Sin.
Without an Atonement involving Satisfaction for sin, there is no Atonement and if you look close and try to find how sin is dealt with without a Penal Atonement, you won't find one.
There is no Atonement, in that case, whatsoever.
Only thinking that is 180 degrees off and, of course, who wouldn't think that ignoring sin and the cruel death Jesus had to Suffer is going to 'sit better with people's flesh', so they try to get rid of the Penal Atonement just by ignoring the whole Bible.
YOU, MR. JD731 HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!!
Because Jesus' Perfect Life, whereby He Obtained Something God didn't have at His Disposal, so to speak, before, and that is a Perfect Being WH
BTAINED RIGHTEOUSNESS BY LIVING PERFECTLY UNDER THE LAWAnd Jesus Righteous Life was then Given to Satisfy The Wrath of God that would have been Poured Out throughout an Endless Eternity in The Lake of Fire, BY THE SINNER.
There has to be the acknowledgment of the Reality of sin that can not just be skipped or said that God can erase it all He wants, without a Real Atonement Paid for it.
Sin.
Without an Atonement involving Satisfaction for sin, there is no Atonement and if you look close and try to find how sin is dealt with without a Penal Atonement, you won't find one.
There is no Atonement, in that case, whatsoever.
Only thinking that is 180 degrees off and, of course, who wouldn't think that ignoring sin and the cruel death Jesus had to Suffer is going to 'sit better with people's flesh', so they try to get rid of the Penal Atonement just by ignoring the whole Bible.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
"As to the death of the body, according to God's wisdom, and in a manner similar to his course in many other cases, the curse is made no longer a curse, because the sting is removed, and the death of the body, otherwise so intimately connected with eternal death, now introduces the Christian into Eternal Life.
"The death of Christ included the Penalty in all its Fulness. In it He offered up his body and was laid in the grave. In it the separation from God took place by which he was led to feel Himself forsaken. "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me,"* was His cry of agony. That His death was not eternal, as would ours have been, arose from the fact that in the execution of the sentence of condemnation, God found in Him not such a victim as mere man would have been, unable to Atone, or render Full Satisfaction; but one whose glorious nature gave Infinite Value to Suffering, and Who could feel most keenly, yet could Bear without destruction, the Wrath of God.
"The death of Christ included the Penalty in all its Fulness. In it He offered up his body and was laid in the grave. In it the separation from God took place by which he was led to feel Himself forsaken. "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me,"* was His cry of agony. That His death was not eternal, as would ours have been, arose from the fact that in the execution of the sentence of condemnation, God found in Him not such a victim as mere man would have been, unable to Atone, or render Full Satisfaction; but one whose glorious nature gave Infinite Value to Suffering, and Who could feel most keenly, yet could Bear without destruction, the Wrath of God.
* Because my sins were on Jesus, causing Him to die, and God can't look upon sin.
Jesus didn't become a sinner by having my sin Placed on Him, .
but THE PENALTY FOR MY SIN WAS.
WHERE in all your writings on this do you require the sinner to have any awareness of their sin and how much it Offends God and, then, where do you show how the Reality of sin is dealt with, by God?
"The Scriptures represent just such a Penalty to have been endured by Christ, accompanied by just such agonies. No one can read the accounts given by the evangelists without being impressed by the fact that they ascribe just such a character to His sufferings on Calvary.
"But, independently of their General Statements, we have the class of passages just referred to, that in which Christ's suffering is represented as the Penalty of our transgressions.
"In Zechariah 13:7 we have that remarkable prophecy which can be applied to Christ as it has never been applied to any save Christ.
"Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
and against the Man that is My Fellow, saith the Lord of Hosts."
"The context speaks of a purging of Jerusalem, out of the trial of which a third part shall be brought, and the means by which this is done is the smiting of the shepherd, and the scattering of the sheep, through which action they are refined, and he says, "they shall call on My Name, and I will hear them:
I will say, It is My people; and they shall say, The Lord is my God." Zech. 13:9.
"But, independently of their General Statements, we have the class of passages just referred to, that in which Christ's suffering is represented as the Penalty of our transgressions.
"In Zechariah 13:7 we have that remarkable prophecy which can be applied to Christ as it has never been applied to any save Christ.
"Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
and against the Man that is My Fellow, saith the Lord of Hosts."
"The context speaks of a purging of Jerusalem, out of the trial of which a third part shall be brought, and the means by which this is done is the smiting of the shepherd, and the scattering of the sheep, through which action they are refined, and he says, "they shall call on My Name, and I will hear them:
I will say, It is My people; and they shall say, The Lord is my God." Zech. 13:9.
"Isaiah 53:5. "The chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed."
The latter part of this verse is quoted in 1 Peter 2:24.
"Isaiah 53:8. "For the transgression of my people was he stricken."
"Verse 9. Declares his perfect innocence and then
"Verse 10 says: "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, &c."
and with his stripes we are healed."
The latter part of this verse is quoted in 1 Peter 2:24.
"Isaiah 53:8. "For the transgression of my people was he stricken."
"Verse 9. Declares his perfect innocence and then
"Verse 10 says: "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, &c."
"Matt. 20:28. "Even as the Son of man came, . . . to give his life, a ransom for many."
"Rom. 5:10. "For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God
by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life."
by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life."
"Rom. 6:10. "For the death that he died, he died unto sin once."
"1 Cor. 15:3. "For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received,
how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures."
how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures."
"2 Cor. 5:14, 15. "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge,
that one died for all, therefore all died; And he died for all, &c."
that one died for all, therefore all died; And he died for all, &c."
"2 Cor. 5:21. "Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf."
"Gal. 3:13. "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law,
having become a curse for us."
having become a curse for us."
"Col. 1:21, 22. "And you, being in time past alienated . . .
yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death."
yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death."
"Heb. 9:26. "But now once, at the end of the ages,
hath He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."
Adapted from Abstract of Systematic Theology, James P. Boyce | The Reformed Reader
hath He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."
Adapted from Abstract of Systematic Theology, James P. Boyce | The Reformed Reader
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