We approach it differently and will see it differently.
What stands out to me in the verse is the spiritual death (separation from God) through sin.
But God made a way for us to escape it.
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Is Spiritual death a Biblical Concept then?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
We approach it differently and will see it differently.
What stands out to me in the verse is the spiritual death (separation from God) through sin.
But God made a way for us to escape it.
Here is another from "Got Questions"; What is the human spirit? | GotQuestions.org
The words spirit and breath are translations of the Hebrew word neshamah and the Greek word pneuma. The words mean “strong wind, blast, or inspiration.” Neshamah is the source of life that vitalizes humanity (Job 33:4). It is the intangible, unseen human spirit that governs man’s mental and emotional existence. The apostle Paul said, “Who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him?” (1 Corinthians 2:11). Upon death the “spirit returns back to God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7; see also Job 34:14-15; Psalm 104:29-30).
Every human being has a spirit, and it is distinct from the “spirit,” or life, of animals. God made man differently from the animals in that He created us “in the image of God” (Genesis 1:26-27). Therefore, man is able to think, feel, love, design, create, and enjoy music, humor, and art. And it is because of the human spirit that we have a “free will” that no other creature on earth has.
The human spirit was damaged in the fall. When Adam sinned, his ability to fellowship with God was broken; he did not die physically that day, but he died spiritually. Ever since, the human spirit has borne the effects of the fall. Before salvation, a person is characterized as spiritually “dead” (Ephesians 2:1-5; Colossians 2:13). A relationship with Christ revitalizes our spirits and renews us day by day (2 Corinthians 4:16).
Interestingly, just as the human spirit was divinely breathed into the first man, so the Holy Spirit was breathed into the first disciples in John 20:22: “And with that [Jesus] breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’” (Acts 2:38). Adam was made alive by the breath of God, and we, as “new creations” in Christ, are made spiritually alive by the “Breath of God,” the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 5:17; John 3:3; Romans 6:4). Upon our acceptance of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit of God joins with our own spirit in ways we cannot comprehend. The apostle John said, “This is how we know that we live in Him and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit” (1 John 4:13).
When we allow the Spirit of God to lead our lives, the “Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children” (Romans 8:16). As children of God, we are no longer led by our own spirit but by God’s Spirit, who leads us to eternal life.
The words spirit and breath are translations of the Hebrew word neshamah and the Greek word pneuma. The words mean “strong wind, blast, or inspiration.” Neshamah is the source of life that vitalizes humanity (Job 33:4). It is the intangible, unseen human spirit that governs man’s mental and emotional existence. The apostle Paul said, “Who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him?” (1 Corinthians 2:11). Upon death the “spirit returns back to God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7; see also Job 34:14-15; Psalm 104:29-30).
Every human being has a spirit, and it is distinct from the “spirit,” or life, of animals. God made man differently from the animals in that He created us “in the image of God” (Genesis 1:26-27). Therefore, man is able to think, feel, love, design, create, and enjoy music, humor, and art. And it is because of the human spirit that we have a “free will” that no other creature on earth has.
The human spirit was damaged in the fall. When Adam sinned, his ability to fellowship with God was broken; he did not die physically that day, but he died spiritually. Ever since, the human spirit has borne the effects of the fall. Before salvation, a person is characterized as spiritually “dead” (Ephesians 2:1-5; Colossians 2:13). A relationship with Christ revitalizes our spirits and renews us day by day (2 Corinthians 4:16).
Interestingly, just as the human spirit was divinely breathed into the first man, so the Holy Spirit was breathed into the first disciples in John 20:22: “And with that [Jesus] breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’” (Acts 2:38). Adam was made alive by the breath of God, and we, as “new creations” in Christ, are made spiritually alive by the “Breath of God,” the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 5:17; John 3:3; Romans 6:4). Upon our acceptance of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit of God joins with our own spirit in ways we cannot comprehend. The apostle John said, “This is how we know that we live in Him and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit” (1 John 4:13).
When we allow the Spirit of God to lead our lives, the “Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children” (Romans 8:16). As children of God, we are no longer led by our own spirit but by God’s Spirit, who leads us to eternal life.
We do see it differently. I view us as being freedom from the bondage of sin and death, not from the consequences sin produces. So what I view us escaping is God's Wrath at Judgment because at Judgment we will have been transformed into the image of Christ.
Here is the passage we are discussing:
19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just bas you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. 20 For awhen you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been afreed from sin and benslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is beternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I understand where we disagree, but I do not understand for certain the "how or why".
In the passage, where do you get that this is spiritual death?
I take it, but am not sure, that it is related to the second death (the condemnation for "rejecting the Light" rather than the death produced by sin).
If so, we agree on the outcome (we escape the second death through Christ as we are "purified", "refined as precious metal is refined", and "transformed into the image of Christ").
And if so, we agree on the forrest but not on the trees - we disagree on the exact meaning of the verse because I view the second death as God's judgment on the wicked rather than a wage of sin ( sin begats death).
If Adam died when he ate, why was it necessary to block the way to the tree of life?
to die, thou shall die - He died over 700 years later, methinks and was and is dead. He brought death unto himself and could not get to the tree of life.
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Rev 22:2
the tree of life
Why?
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Rev 2:7
The request - And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
<Will they need to eat of the tree of life?
V 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Who is going to be eating of the tree of life?
The answer - YLT Luke 23:43 and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
to die, thou shall die - He died over 700 years later, methinks and was and is dead. He brought death unto himself and could not get to the tree of life.
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Rev 22:2
the tree of life
Why?
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Rev 2:7
The request - And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
<Will they need to eat of the tree of life?
V 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Who is going to be eating of the tree of life?
The answer - YLT Luke 23:43 and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
It is a carry over from Catholic doctrine into Reformed theology. One legitimate complaint thise outside the Catholic Church made of the Reformers is they did not go far enough.
Realistically, though, this was to be expected. The Reformers could not have been expected to identify every part of their tradition that qas unbiblical. Each focused on specific areas they saw as problematic, but none of then could separate themselves enough from the Catholic Church to get back to Scripture entirely. They reformed issues they saw.
I dont blame them. They took an important first step away from error. I blame those who for centuries stopped at that initial step and never made it any closer to God's Word. You could say the Second Wave helped, and maybe it did a little, but they just tried to reform the Reformed.
We need a revival that seeks out God and His Word.
For a little history on the side, free of charge:
Tertullian (in the 3rd century) was the first to indicate a belief that sin could be inherited. He believed in traducianism, that a child's soul was a blend of his parents souls.
Ambrosiaster (4th century) did not believe in Original Sin but he shared Tertullian's view that sins could be inherited. He was the first to change Roman's 5:12 to read "in him (Adam) all sinned" rather than "all sinned".
The Doctrine of Original Sin was developed by Augustine (5th century) using the mistranslation of Ambrosiaster. We know this because Augustine provided this mistranslation as his basis for developing the Doctrine of Original Sin.
Baptists inherited it from the Reformers who inherited it from the Catholic Church.
Tertullian (in the 3rd century) was the first to indicate a belief that sin could be inherited. He believed in traducianism, that a child's soul was a blend of his parents souls.
Ambrosiaster (4th century) did not believe in Original Sin but he shared Tertullian's view that sins could be inherited. He was the first to change Roman's 5:12 to read "in him (Adam) all sinned" rather than "all sinned".
The Doctrine of Original Sin was developed by Augustine (5th century) using the mistranslation of Ambrosiaster. We know this because Augustine provided this mistranslation as his basis for developing the Doctrine of Original Sin.
Baptists inherited it from the Reformers who inherited it from the Catholic Church.
"Spiritual death" is not a Biblical phrase, it's a reference to a Biblical fact. It's used the same as "Rapture' or "Trinity" as a reference.
The best example, I think, was used by Christ.
Matt. 10:28"
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
The word "destroy" in this verse is not annihilation, but a total loss of the soul in judgement, the "second death."
I see a difference here.
With the Rapture there is a verse stating the doctrine:
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Now, the timing and application may differ among views - but that there will be a Rapture is in the Bible.
Likewise, if we look at the Trinity there are passages stating that Jesus and the Father are One, the Spirit is the Spirit of God, and God is One. Now, people have different views concerning the Godhead, but the Trinity is in the text of Scripture.
This cannot be said of "spiritual death", unless we are talking about the Second death. But this is not what the OP is talking about.
I agree that there is a second death. And if that is what you mean by "spiritual death" then I agree the teaching is biblical.
What I find as unbiblical is a person being made spiritually alive snd then dying spiritually. Thise who experience the second death were never born of the Spirit. They have no life.
Spiritual death and the second death are one in the same!
It's the same with the example you used with the rapture,
the rapture and the resurrection are one in the same.
But I disagree that one who becomes spiritually alive cannot spiritually die in the end.
The Scripture teaches quite the opposite!
Good start. I disagree, but I am always open to Scripture (this is not a hill I'd die on because I believe that "saved" is from the wrath to come which is a future event).
What passages do you believe states that one being born of the Spirit may die spiritually?
And, just because I have Free-Will baptist family, can those who are made alive spiritually, then die spiritually, be made spiritually alive again?
There are literally dozens of them, Jon.
One that comes to mind at this moment comes from Peter.
These are the ones who were saved and fell into false doctrine and lost their way.
2 Peter 2:20-22
"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
There are several in Hebrews, dealing with the 1st century Jewish believers turning back from faith in Christ to temple worship (the Law).
Heb. 6:4-6
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
Calvinism is like a stack of domino's lined up, take one point down and they all go down (minus total depravity).
These verses take the entirety of Calvinism to the ground. It's a dead theory, just not yet known by the Calvinists.
37818
Well-Known Member
Worm is used of Christ on the cross per Psalms 22:6, But I am a worm, and no man; . . . .
I have always read Hebrews as written to the 1st century Jews. So I may disagree on this one.
I've understood it as being addressed to those tempted to return to the Jewish religion. The Jews tasted the gifts of the Spirit, saw the miracles of God, was delivered by God, and in the process were looking for the coming Messiah. Should they reject Christ who has come to go back to a faith seeking the fulfillment of the Promise they would be without hope, crucifying to themselves Christ anew (He is the Messiah, all that pointed to the Promise pointed to Jesus and His Work).
I will read it again in the context you suggest. Perhaps I read it in the wrong context.
I disagree here. There are a couple of reasons.
1. The language here seems to be pointing to a knowledge of the gospel rather than being born of the Spirit. I read the verse as men turning from the faith delivered to them.
2. This, in my opinion, is identical to the seed which is chocked out by weeds.
3. Not pertaining to the verse but your comment - one cannot be saved from a future event and end up when perishing when that event comes.
I'd view this passage to pertain to the many who proclaimed Christ only to hear "I never knew you".
In the end we would arrive at the same conclusion regarding who is saved, who is born of the Spirit. We'd disagree on whether many of those who perish were ever saved to begin with.
No, Jon, there can be no doubt about Hebrews, they were "made partakers of the Holy Spirit."
You can deny that if you like, but it's cut and dry.
I am not denying that they have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit. I am questioning whether they were born of the Spirit, indwelt by the Spirit.
I acknowledge that your interpretation is valid. So much with Hebrews depends on who one determines to be the original audience.
Throughout Scripture we read similar language condemning unfaithful Jews given the experience of Israel with God. In the Old Testament this was compared to adultery.
I am not saying that you are wrong in your interpretation. Only that your interpretation dictates that these people who fall away are beyond salvation.
You are wrong, however, that the passage is cut and dry.
The fate of those who are not saved from the wrath to come is less important to me. But I do believe that the life we inherit is everlasting.
They are beyond salvation because they have committed the unforgivable sin, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
They have not only put Christ to open shame, but also the indwelling Holy Spirit that had to depart.
There is a difference in backsliding, even terrible backsliding, and still believing in Christ.
In this case, the Lord chastises those that belong to Him and brings them back in the fold.
But in this case with the Hebrews, they have completely transferred their faith away from Christ.
Myself and many others have posted here multiple verses to support our views regarding these doctrines, and feel very strongly that they are found and supported in the bible, and believe a majority of posters herer would agree with me, as those views are the reformed and najority of Baptists held, not just Calvinist Baptists like myself