Is Spiritual death a Biblical Concept then?

[JesusFan]

Nobody is saying the lost are not dead in their sins.

You were saying that Adam died spiritually.

You are changing your argument.

Adam, and now us as being born into Adam. are born without the means inherit within ourselves any more to discern scriptures , to get back to the true God, hence "spiritually dead"

I believe the contrast is the death sin produces and the life that is in Christ.

Another good example is the mind set on the flesh, which is death, and the mind set on the Spirit which is life in Christ.

The contrast is the product of sin (death, as sin begats death) and the gift of God (which is life).


It is not a versus situation. It is physical death and then the gift of God (Christ). Those who remain in their sins, who ate condemned, are so because they reject this Gift (the condemnation os this, that the Light came into the world and men rejected the Light because their deeds were evil).

I see the verse (Romans 6:23) not as a contrast but a truth statement.


I disagree....maybe?. Or I might agree....I'm really not sure.

You decide:

Physical death is the result of sin. The second death is God's judgment against the wicked.

If we use "spiritual death" to be the opposite of "spiritual life" then spiritual death is a mind set on the flesh. This produces sin, which produces death. Then there is spiritual life (Christ in is).

The issue I have is with those who believe Adam was "spiritually alive" and essentially killed God (killed or died to Christ in Him....i.e., Life).

It redefines too much.

Spiritual life is eternal. Being dead in our trespasses is not eternal (for those saved) as they are given spiritual life.

But if we are talking about the second death as being "spiritual death", then that is everlasting.

Spiritual death is sinners unable to have within themselves any longer a result of the Fall any capacity to commune with God, to have a relationship with God, to right discern His scriptures, just a walking corpse

The issue is God did not tell Adam he would die on the day he ate of the fruit.

I say this for two reasons.

1. The English words do not indicate when (a precise day) this death would occur.

Consider the verse again - "but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.”

On the day Adam ate of the fruit death would be certain.

Most rearrange the words, at least mentally, to justify Adam dying on that day.

2. God tells Adam what his action caused. God mentions physical death, but not spiritual death (which is odd since most who hold the theory believe spiritual death the most significant part).

3. If this refers to spiritual death then the Hebrew religion missed what some find obvious
They missed it for thousands of years.

4. Along with the last one, this spiritual death is not mentioned in the New Testament. Several times Scripture indicates physical death and then judgment and this judgment on the wicked being the second death.

If Adam did not die spiritual right then and there, was no need to announce a coming Messiah to atone for them

We approach it differently and will see it differently.

What stands out to me in the verse is the spiritual death (separation from God) through sin.

But God made a way for us to escape it.

When we have just our sin natures, have just physical existing, a walking corpse, no spiritual life at all

 

[JonC]

There is a difference in backsliding, even terrible backsliding, and still believing in Christ.

In this case, the Lord chastises those that belong to Him and brings them back in the fold.

But in this case with the Hebrews, they have completely transferred their faith away from Christ.

I agree.

We agree on the state of each.

Where we disagree is in the previous state of those who leave the faith. This is why I said it is not that an important issue to me.

If it helps to understand my position - my view is that those who will not escape the wrath to come were never saved from the wrath to come. If they were saved from the wrath to come they would not experience the wrath to come.

But I understand your view that one can be saved and then lost.

My question is whether these peoole can ever be saved again. Per your interpretation of Hebrews this would be impossible (if the first part of the verse is speaking of one being saved, being born of the Spirit, and then falling away from the faith then the second part has to apply as well - they are beyond salvation).

Backsliding is not, of course, leaving the faith. Back sliding deals with living the Christian life (one gets to a point, slips behind, then continues forward). This deals with sanctification and God's corrective discipline.


Say, for example, Steve is saved. He overcomes adultry. He overcomes homosexuality. He overcomes his drinking problem. Later he starts "problem drinking" again hanging out with his friends. God disciplines Steve and he eventually overcomes this sin. That is backsliding.

But if Steve is saved, is born of the Spirit, God has put His Spirit in Steve, Steve is made a new creation, is being transformed into the image of Christ....and then Steve abandons the faith...well...tgat would be a loss of salvation and Steve, per Hebrews, would now be beyond Jesus' reach (Steve can never be saved).

My view, of course, is that were Steve were really saved then he would not have left the faith, so Steve is not beyond salvation.


Consider 1John 2:19:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[JonC]

If Adam did not die spiritual right then and there, was no need to announce a coming Messiah to atone for them

This makes no sense. You are trusting your theory rather than Scripture.

What does the BIBLE say? It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.

Adam not dying right then and there has no impact on the Judgment to come, the wrath to come, the day of wrath, the second death.

Adam will be judged either in Christ or among the wicked at Judgment. This is a future event.

Think before you post.

Spiritual death is sinners unable to have within themselves any longer a result of the Fall any capacity to commune with God, to have a relationship with God, to right discern His scriptures, just a walking corpse

Adam was created flesh and the put in the Garden. Obviously Adam's nature did not suit his new environment in that setting of God's presence as Adam was tempted and gave in to sin. Read Genesis. His mind was set on the flesh.

Your theory is not in the Bible. Why elevate it above Scripture....or even equal to Scripture?

When we have just our sin natures, have just physical existing, a walking corpse, no spiritual life at all

Spiritually speaking, I agree.

Adam, and now us as being born into Adam. are born without the means inherit within ourselves any more to discern scriptures , to get back to the true God, hence "spiritually dead"

Yes. We are born, and Adam was created, "flesh". Our minds are set on the flesh. As such we cannot please God. We must be born of the Spirit.

I agree that we are born, and Adam was created, "flesh" and in need of a spiritual birth.

I was saying we do not, and Adam dod not, per Scripture, die spiritually. This Life is ONLY in Jesus. He IS the Life.

 

[Charlie24]

I agree.

We agree on the state of each.

Where we disagree is in the previous state of those who leave the faith. This is why I said it is not that an important issue to me.

If it helps to understand my position - my view is that those who will not escape the wrath to come were never saved from the wrath to come. If they were saved from the wrath to come they would not experience the wrath to come.

But I understand your view that one can be saved and then lost.

My question is whether these peoole can ever be saved again. Per your interpretation of Hebrews this would be impossible (if the first part of the verse is speaking of one being saved, being born of the Spirit, and then falling away from the faith then the second part has to apply as well - they are beyond salvation).

Backsliding is not, of course, leaving the faith. Back sliding deals with living the Christian life (one gets to a point, slips behind, then continues forward). This deals with sanctification and God's corrective discipline.


Say, for example, Steve is saved. He overcomes adultry. He overcomes homosexuality. He overcomes his drinking problem. Later he starts "problem drinking" again hanging out with his friends. God disciplines Steve and he eventually overcomes this sin. That is backsliding.

But if Steve is saved, is born of the Spirit, God has put His Spirit in Steve, Steve is made a new creation, is being transformed into the image of Christ....and then Steve abandons the faith...well...tgat would be a loss of salvation and Steve, per Hebrews, would now be beyond Jesus' reach (Steve can never be saved).

My view, of course, is that were Steve were really saved then he would not have left the faith, so Steve is not beyond salvation.


Consider 1John 2:19:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Those in 1 John 2:19 are a totally different situation. They were never saved, there's a lot of that going on.

But there are many other examples in Scripture where the faith was totally abandoned after salvation.

There are several ways that can happen, in the first century, with the Jews peer pressure and persecution on believers was a driving force to abandon Christ.

Today it's false doctrine that pushes one to place faith in something other that Christ.

This is not rocket science, and Satan uses the same old bag of tricks, and it works very well for him.

We are warned over and over again against the false doctrine that can take our faith away from Christ and place it in something else.

 

[JonC]

Those in 1 John 2:19 are a totally different situation. They were never saved, there's a lot of that going on.

But there are many other examples in Scripture where the faith was totally abandoned after salvation.

There are several ways that can happen, in the first century, with the Jews peer pressure and persecution on believers was a driving force to abandon Christ.

Today it's false doctrine that pushes one to place faith in something other that Christ.

This is not rocket science, and Satan uses the same old bag of tricks, and it works very well for him.

We are warned over and over again against the false doctrine that can take our faith away from Christ and place it in something else.

How do you know they were different?

Those in 1 John 2:19 professed Christ, knew the gospel, experienced the blessings of the Spirit, etc. They were thought to have been a part of them. Then they left.

I agree the warnings are real. I disagree that the warnings make eternal life temporary.

But in the end we agree that the lost are lost.

 

[JonC]

@Charlie24.

Consider this passage:

​

Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

What are these "elementary things"? Repentance from sins, cleansing rites, laying on of hands, the resurrection from the dead, eternal judgment.

These are the things Judaism held, the Hebrew religion that pointed to the Messiah.

Why move on to the maturity of faith?

Because these things have been met in Christ.

How have these people been enlightened, wasted of heavenly things, shared in the Spirit?

The previous chapters in Hebrew tell us. Through Moses, Joshua, the Exodus, God's miracles, all of these things pointing to the coming Promise.

What happens if theses Hebrews return to the elementary things rather than moving to the mature faith?

They look for a fulfillment of the Promise Who has already come and again crucify Christ to themselves. Chrust will not again be crucified, so their faith becomes useless.

The last part of this passage makes this clear:


Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

The land drinks in the rain, but some land oroduces a crop and other land thorns. But all of the land drinks in the rain.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Worm is used of Christ on the cross per Psalms 22:6, But I am a worm, and no man; . . . .

Do you take that literally?

(Psa 22:6 KJV) But I [am] a worm,[H8438] and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

The KJV translates Strong's H8438 in the following manner: scarlet (34x), worm (8x), crimson (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. worm, scarlet stuff, crimson
   1. worm - the female 'coccus ilicis'
   2. scarlet stuff, crimson, scarlet
      1. the dye made from the dried body of the female of the worm "coccus ilicis"
2. worm, maggot
   1. worm, grub
   2. the worm "coccus ilicis"
      "When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might 'bring many sons unto glory' (Hbr 2:10)! He died for us, that we might live through him! Psa 22:6 describes such a worm and gives us this picture of Christ. (cf. Isa 1:18)" (Henry Morris. Biblical Basis for Modern Science, Baker Book House, 1985, p. 73)

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24.

Consider this passage:

​

Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

What are these "elementary things"? Repentance from sins, cleansing rites, laying on of hands, the resurrection from the dead, eternal judgment.

These are the things Judaism held, the Hebrew religion that pointed to the Messiah.

Why move on to the maturity of faith?

Because these things have been met in Christ.

How have these people been enlightened, wasted of heavenly things, shared in the Spirit?

The previous chapters in Hebrew tell us. Through Moses, Joshua, the Exodus, God's miracles, all of these things pointing to the coming Promise.

What happens if theses Hebrews return to the elementary things rather than moving to the mature faith?

They look for a fulfillment of the Promise Who has already come and again crucify Christ to themselves. Chrust will not again be crucified, so their faith becomes useless.

The last part of this passage makes this clear:


Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

The land drinks in the rain, but some land oroduces a crop and other land thorns. But all of the land drinks in the rain.

Jon, the elementary things are the first principles, referring to the Old Testament Scripture.

"Let us go on to perfection" is referring to moving on to Grace in the New Testament.

"Not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works" is referring to the Old Testament sacrificial system. Leaving it behind.

 

[Charlie24]

Jon, the elementary things are the first principles, referring to the Old Testament Scripture.

"Let us go on to perfection" is referring to moving on to Grace in the New Testament.

"Not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works" is referring to the Old Testament sacrificial system. Leaving it behind.

Paul, or I believe the author is Paul, is telling them to come out of the Old into the New with Grace.

See, these Hebrews were contemplating, and some already have turned back, going back to temple worship (the Law).

Paul is telling to leave it behind and move forward in the Grace of Christ in the NT.

 

[Charlie24]

Paul, or I believe the author is Paul, is telling them to come out of the Old into the New with Grace.

See, these Hebrews were contemplating, and some already have turned back, going back to temple worship (the Law).

Paul is telling to leave it behind and move forward in the Grace of Christ in the NT.

Then beginning in vs 4, Paul hits the purpose of the Book of Hebrews, warning them of the consequences of turning back on Christ.

 

[Charlie24]

Then beginning in vs 4, Paul hits the purpose of the Book of Hebrews, warning them of the consequences of turning back on Christ.

By the way, Jon, I posted a thread on this subject in Hebrews pointing out the 3 warnings of Paul to the Hebrews of turning back on Christ.

https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/the-willful-sin-of-unbelief.130619/

 

[JonC]

Jon, the elementary things are the first principles, referring to the Old Testament Scripture.

"Let us go on to perfection" is referring to moving on to Grace in the New Testament.

"Not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works" is referring to the Old Testament sacrificial system. Leaving it behind.

So far we agree.

The only other part is wherher those "who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away" were saved or being urged to maturity of that OT faith


I believe that describes the Jew under the Old Covenant, as they tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age. The believer tasted of that age already come. Should the Jew fall away from the faith *not stay with the Hebrew faith until it's maturity in Christ) and turn back to look for what has already come then their faith is useless.

 

[JonC]

Adam, and now us as being born into Adam. are born without the means inherit within ourselves any more to discern scriptures , to get back to the true God, hence "spiritually dead"


Spiritual death is sinners unable to have within themselves any longer a result of the Fall any capacity to commune with God, to have a relationship with God, to right discern His scriptures, just a walking corpse


If Adam did not die spiritual right then and there, was no need to announce a coming Messiah to atone for them


When we have just our sin natures, have just physical existing, a walking corpse, no spiritual life at all

I don't care about your theories. I care about God's Word.

You are just rambling....not one passage.

 

[Charlie24]

So far we agree.

The only other part is wherher those "who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away" were saved or being urged to maturity of that OT faith


I believe that describes the Jew under the Old Covenant, as they tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age. The believer tasted of that age already come. Should the Jew fall away from the faith *not stay with the Hebrew faith until it's maturity in Christ) and turn back to look for what has already come then their faith is useless.

Well, now, let's take a look at the audience Paul was speaking to. Who were they?

Heb. 3:1

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;"

There can be no doubt Paul was speaking to born-again Hebrews/Jews.

 

[37818]

Do you take that literally?

What literally didn't die in place of the soul having died.

 

[JonC]

Well, now, let's take a look at the audience Paul was speaking to. Who were they?

Heb. 3:1

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;"

There can be no doubt Paul was speaking to born-again Hebrews/Jews.

That dog dont hunt.

Just after the writer of Hebrews writes that, he writes this:

"See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God."

Paul does the same in his epistles. He writes as if addressing a legitimate congregation (comprised of saved znd unsaved, as we dont know their hearts).

There will be many among the church who have worked in the church, who call Jesus Lord, but who do not infact know Christ.


I think most pastors know this is true. Any congregation has believers, "believers" in profession alone, and those not quite there.

I have actually seen peoole in our congregation who attended for years ckme to belueve and be saved.

 

[Charlie24]

That dog dont hunt.

Just after the writer of Hebrews writes that, he writes this:

"See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God."

Paul does the same in his epistles. He writes as if addressing a legitimate congregation (comprised of saved znd unsaved, as we dont know their hearts).

There will be many among the church who have worked in the church, who call Jesus Lord, but who do not infact know Christ.


I think most pastors know this is true. Any congregation has believers, "believers" in profession alone, and those not quite there.

I have actually seen peoole in our congregation who attended for years ckme to belueve and be saved.

Yes, that dog will hunt!

Paul is showing them the possibilities of departing from Christ.

Departing from Christ begins with a heart leaning toward unbelief.

He has already addressed them as "Brethren, partakers of the Heavenly calling."

But hey, Jon, you believe whatever you like, no skin off my nose.

 

[JonC]

Yes, that dog will hunt!

Paul is showing them the possibilities of departing from Christ.

Departing from Christ begins with a heart leaning toward unbelief.

He has already addressed them as "Brethren, partakers of the Heavenly calling."

But hey, Jon, you believe whatever you like, no skin off my nose.

Oh....I agree the writer is showing the possibility of departing from Christ. That was his point. They had been brought to the point of Christ, He is the mature form, the fulfillment, of the Hebrew faith.

I dont believe rejecting Christ starts with unbelief. Instead I believe that unbelief IS rejecting Christ.

Yes, the Jewish people had a "heavenly calling". They were called out by God to be His people and through them God would send His Christ.


I get your view. I never held it, but I get it.

We disagree on the interpretation of those passages. And that is fine, as both of us can - on this topic - find our doctrine in God's Word. We dont have to agree.

It may be clear cut to is, but it is not a clear cut issue. You assume that the writer, who you assume to be Paul, is writing to believers based on the context. I assume the writer is addressing Jews caught up between Christianity (their faith matured) and the Jewish faith.

Each of our conclusions are based on the context we believe exists



This is a good conversation because we have the common ground of God's Word.

 

[percho]

Death, being dead, @JonC brought up something interesting for I thought of my long departed Christian mother.

If someone ask of her which is the more biblical answer, O, she is dead in Christ or O, she has gone to heaven?

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thes 1:16,17

Is my mother dead in Christ or not?

BTW the, "and so," 8 and 9 words from the end of verse 17: What do they have to do with ever being with the Lord?

 

[Charlie24]

Oh....I agree the writer is showing the possibility of departing from Christ. That was his point. They had been brought to the point of Christ, He is the mature form, the fulfillment, of the Hebrew faith.

I dont believe rejecting Christ starts with unbelief. Instead I believe that unbelief IS rejecting Christ.

Yes, the Jewish people had a "heavenly calling". They were called out by God to be His people and through them God would send His Christ.


I get your view. I never held it, but I get it.

We disagree on the interpretation of those passages. And that is fine, as both of us can - on this topic - find our doctrine in God's Word. We dont have to agree.

It may be clear cut to is, but it is not a clear cut issue. You assume that the writer, who you assume to be Paul, is writing to believers based on the context. I assume the writer is addressing Jews caught up between Christianity (their faith matured) and the Jewish faith.

Each of our conclusions are based on the context we believe exists



This is a good conversation because we have the common ground of God's Word.

I certainly see the audience as saved but not progressing, babes in Christ. Paul makes that clear in 5:11-14.

He didn't want to embarrass them, but he had to let them know that they had been saved long enough to know these things but they didn't know.

"Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."