Is Spiritual death a Biblical Concept then?

[JesusFan]

Are you saying you look at what these men write , to make them an idol, or you read their writing to see what they taught about scripture?
When we read any post on a board, we are after all reading another persons take on scripture. Is that what you are saying?

ONLY the bible itself is inspired by the Holy Spirit, but the Lord did and still does gift to us gifted men to learn and study the scriptures from, but NEVER place any of their doctrines and teachings on par with the scriptures, but as useful tools to consult and use

 

[JesusFan]

You would do much better to turn to God rather than men.

The problem you have is you seem completely unable to justify your theories with Scripture.

The reason you gave for for your belief is the men you follow are "smarter" than you. Well, Stephen Hawking was probably smarter than you as well. Are you going to become an atheist?

Until you can provide Scripture you really have no Christian ground to hold your theory.

It appears you simply chose a camp and drank the kool-aid.

Until you can defend your theory using God's Word the belief you hold is not yours - it is a borrowed belief to which you have no legitimate right.


Take my conversation with @Charlie24 for an example. He believes one can lose their salvation. I do not.

BUT each of us defended our view with Scripture. We both know where we disagree and why (and how we interpret the passages of concern differently). We know this because we went to the common ground of God's Word.

Had I said I believe eternal security because Tim Keller, John Calvin, and Spurgeon believed it and they are smarter than us.....well....that would be saying that I'm appropriating another's beliefs. And it would be a foolish argument because @Charlie24 is not obligated as a Christian to believe something because John Calvin taught it.



You really should prioritize God over men and look to His Word to determine doctrine. When you do that you will have a biblical position, even if we disagree on the interpretation of Scripture.

By following men rather than God you are standing on very weak ground.

I have listed many scriptures in reference to my stated positions, but you have already stated that for example Pst is wrong and false, so you would not study the verses, but just state "not found in the bible, but only in traditions of men"

 

[JesusFan]

You would do much better to turn to God rather than men.

The problem you have is you seem completely unable to justify your theories with Scripture.

The reason you gave for for your belief is the men you follow are "smarter" than you. Well, Stephen Hawking was probably smarter than you as well. Are you going to become an atheist?

Until you can provide Scripture you really have no Christian ground to hold your theory.

It appears you simply chose a camp and drank the kool-aid.

Until you can defend your theory using God's Word the belief you hold is not yours - it is a borrowed belief to which you have no legitimate right.


Take my conversation with @Charlie24 for an example. He believes one can lose their salvation. I do not.

BUT each of us defended our view with Scripture. We both know where we disagree and why (and how we interpret the passages of concern differently). We know this because we went to the common ground of God's Word.

Had I said I believe eternal security because Tim Keller, John Calvin, and Spurgeon believed it and they are smarter than us.....well....that would be saying that I'm appropriating another's beliefs. And it would be a foolish argument because @Charlie24 is not obligated as a Christian to believe something because John Calvin taught it.



You really should prioritize God over men and look to His Word to determine doctrine. When you do that you will have a biblical position, even if we disagree on the interpretation of Scripture.

By following men rather than God you are standing on very weak ground.

And my point in listing those names is to just state that I stand in good company with how I view and understand the bible

 

[JesusFan]

If you go by what Paul said, "Let us move on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works" there can be no doubt "the laying again" is referring to the Law that demanded works.

So, the principles of the Doctrine of Christ are the first principles found in the OT.

And "moving on" would be to the New Testament/New Covenant in Christ.

But I can see that there are doubts on this, and everything else if you think about it.

I keep coming back to when the Lord Jesus plainly told us ALL that the father grant to Him SHALL be raised up and kept by Him until the last day, that NONE shall be lost again. Whatever Hebrews 6 means, has to be read in the light of the words of Christ on this topic

 

[JesusFan]

I agree with your view of the "milk". I view the OT as foreshadowing the New Covenant, in a sence the "milk" preparing for the "meat".

But I also understand those who believe the "milk" refers to the gospel while the "meat" refers to Christian growth.

My argument would be that up to this passage the previous chapters appear to support the former view as what had been discussed was angles, Moses, Joshua, the levitical priesthood, etc.

Some also view Hebrews not to have been written to a Hebrew audience.

The audience greatly affects the context (like where we depart is I view the passage addressing potential Jewish converts while you view them as converts).


The cool thing is this really does not matter in the end because we view the lost as lost, whether or not they were at one time saved. This also does not affect discipleship because where you may warn of losing one's faith I would warn of being deceived into thinking that faith is present.


I have one question (that you probably answered but me, being blind like Master Po, probably missed).


Do you believe a person who was saved and then turned from the faith can be saved again?

IF you hold to able to lose salvation, which I do not, the answer by this very passage has to be no

 

[37818]

If you go by what Paul said, "Let us move on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works" there can be no doubt "the laying again" is referring to the Law that demanded works.

So, the principles of the Doctrine of Christ are the first principles found in the OT.

And "moving on" would be to the New Testament/New Covenant in Christ.

But I can see that there are doubts on this, and everything else if you think about it.

I am persuased the milk being referred to in Hebrews 5:11-14, Hebrews 6:1-3.
Do you want me to go back over the 7 NT points of in 6:1-2?

 

[JesusFan]

NO, they can't, Paul makes it clear there can be no repentance after departing from Christ.

This is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, forcing Him to depart, and it will not be forgiven.

But let's not confuse this with backsliding! the backslider still has faith and remains saved.

Several scholars I have read say that the person who willingly departs from Christ, which Paul is warning against in Hebrews, will never want to come back to Christ.

But the problem of departing from Christ is much deeper than what's illustrated in Hebrews.

We can depart from Christ by shifting our faith from Christs' finished work to something else and the result is the same as what we see in Hebrews.

Such as seeing our salvation coming from a pool of water, or if we begin to believe that merely being elected by God counts as our salvation, or maybe believing your denominational beliefs are the way to God, etc.

Our faith must be grounded in the finished work of Christ or there is no salvation.

This is where so called Lordship Salvation came off the tracks, as while those holding to it do want to preserve one should strive to please and serve Jesus, they at times make it sound as if unless Jesus is Lord of all, He cannot be Lord at all, and how many of us once saved have them every waking moment of outr lives?

 

[JesusFan]

Exactly. This is what I mean by being "saved" today means being saved at Judgment. Either one is saved (at Judgment will be saved) or they are not saved (they will perish).

We are saved right now, already having passed the Judgement and now having eternal life

 

[Charlie24]

I keep coming back to when the Lord Jesus plainly told us ALL that the father grant to Him SHALL be raised up and kept by Him until the last day, that NONE shall be lost again. Whatever Hebrews 6 means, has to be read in the light of the words of Christ on this topic

Christ said, None are lost that you have given me, EXECPT the son of perdition, referring to Judas Iscariot.

Judas was lost because he lost sight of who Christ was, and wanted Him to be something different.

Judas could not have gone out with the 12, two by two, and performed those miracles without being in the faith.

Christ said that no man can pluck them out of my hand, but what did Christ say in Rev. 3:11?

"Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

I think we need do some more study to see what this means.

 

[Charlie24]

I am persuased the milk being referred to in Hebrews 5:11-14, Hebrews 6:1-3.
Do you want me to go back over the 7 NT points of in 6:1-2?

Yes, that would be good!

 

[JonC]

We are saved right now, already having passed the Judgement and now having eternal life

1 Thessalonians 1:10 - "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is, Jesus who rescues us from the wrath to come."

2 Cor 5:10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad

1 Peter 1:17-21. "If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18 knowing that you were not [o]redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God."

This is what I mean that you would do better to read the Bible than to read men's opinions.

 

[37818]

Yes, that would be good!

. . . principles of the doctrine of Christ, . . .
His death, burial, and resurrection.

. . . the foundation of repentance from dead works, . . .
Hebrews 9:14, How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

. . . of faith toward God, . . .
Hebrews 11:6, But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

. . . Of the doctrine of baptisms, . . .
Matthew 3:11-12, I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

. . . of laying on of hands, . . .
Acts 8:17, Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

. . . of resurrection of the dead, . . .
John 5:29, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

. . . of eternal judgment.
Revelation 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Charlie24]

. . . principles of the doctrine of Christ, . . .
His death, burial, and resurrection.

. . . the foundation of repentance from dead works, . . .
Hebrews 9:14, How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

. . . of faith toward God, . . .
Hebrews 11:6, But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

. . . Of the doctrine of baptisms, . . .
Matthew 3:11-12, I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

. . . of laying on of hands, . . .
Acts 8:17, Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

. . . of resurrection of the dead, . . .
John 5:29, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

. . . of eternal judgment.
Revelation 20:15

That is quite a bit of bouncing around the Scripture, and not in context to this particular passage.

You have to remember Paul is speaking to the Jews of turning back from Christ to the Law.

"Not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith in God."

He is telling them to let go of the works of the Law, and the faith in that system now that Christ has fulfilled the Law in it's entirety.

"Of the doctrines of baptisms," is referring to the many "washings" of purifications in the Law of Moses. This is where baptism originated, from the washings that no longer are to be observed with John the Baptist coming to show the purpose of the washings in the OT Scripture.

"And the laying on of hands," this is referring again to the Law of Moses, the laying on of hands in the sacrificial system. When an animal was sacrificed for sin, the person who brought the animal was to lay his hands on the head of the animal to be slain as the sign of the persons sin being transferred to the animal. This represents Christ dying on the Cross for our sins.

"The resurrection of the dead," is once again referring the prophets of the OT speaking on the resurrection of the dead but totally incomplete, Isaiah, Hosea, Daniel, all spoke of the future resurrection that represented Christ.

"And of eternal judgment," again referring the OT view of the judgement of God. But is explained in the NT, if you move on to it.

Vs 3, "And this we will do if God permit," refers to moving on to the NT where all of the Law is explained in Christ.

Then in vs 5, Paul begins to explain what will happen if they don't keep moving forward to the NT, they will begin to fall away, stuck in the first principles of the OT and not understanding.

 

[JonC]

That is quite a bit of bouncing around the Scripture, and not in context to this particular passage.

You have to remember Paul is speaking to the Jews of turning back from Christ to the Law.

"Not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith in God."

He is telling them to let go of the works of the Law, and the faith in that system now that Christ has fulfilled the Law in it's entirety.

"Of the doctrines of baptisms," is referring to the many "washings" of purifications in the Law of Moses. This is where baptism originated, from the washings that no longer are to be observed with John the Baptist coming to show the purpose of the washings in the OT Scripture.

"And the laying on of hands," this is referring again to the Law of Moses, the laying on of hands in the sacrificial system. When an animal was sacrificed for sin, the person who brought the animal was to lay his hands on the head of the animal to be slain as the sign of the persons sin being transferred to the animal. This represents Christ dying on the Cross for our sins.

"The resurrection of the dead," is once again referring the prophets of the OT speaking on the resurrection of the dead but totally incomplete, Isaiah, Hosea, Daniel, all spoke of the future resurrection that represented Christ.

"And of eternal judgment," again referring the OT view of the judgement of God. But is explained in the NT, if you move on to it.

Vs 3, "And this we will do if God permit," refers to moving on to the NT where all of the Law is explained in Christ.

Then in vs 5, Paul begins to explain what will happen if they don't keep moving forward to the NT, they will begin to fall away, stuck in the first principles of the OT and not understanding.

I'm shocked....I agree entirely with this post.

 

[Charlie24]

I'm shocked....I agree entirely with this post.

That was just the surface in a glance, when you really get into it, which would take unlimited space on these boards, you will really be shocked.

The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed to man, this is what Paul was trying to drive in their heads.

The New Testament explains all of what the OT Law represented in Christ.

The Jews Paul was speaking to were lacking this knowledge and falling away!

 

[JonC]

The Hebrews Paul was addressing knew the Law very well, but they couldn't see Christ in the Law as they needed to.

Paul was urging them on to read the New Testament Scripture that was being written at that time for them to see Christ as related in the Law.

Reminds me of Jesus' words to Nicodemus. But this is how branches were removed and new ones grafted in, so to speak.

 

[JonC]

Thread closed due to length

Continued here:

https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/is-spiritual-death-a-biblical-concept-part-2.131585/