Did Adam Have a Free Will?

[Aaron]

God prepared a place of rest for those that would believe in Him. We see this in both the OT and NT.

God being omniscient knew that man would try to do it his own way and provided the means for man to restore his broken relationship with God. Whether through faith in the OT or faith in the NT it is still faith in God.

Creation was not for the cross, it was for man so they could have a relationship with God.

How was that rest prepared?

 

[Silverhair]

How was that rest prepared?

By God. I have not said God did not prepare the rest.

But you have made the error of thinking that man does not have the free will with which to respond to the various means that God has used to draw man to Himself.

 

[Aaron]

By God.

Profound. Did He tell us how?

I have not said God did not prepare the rest.

But you did make a statement about God's will.

 

[JonC]

Proceeding on the premise that a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, it's impossible that Adam and Eve corrupted themselves. The corrupting influence was the lie. The Devil, having the power of death and sin, corrupted them. Jesus did not destroy the works of Adam, He destroyed the works of the Devil [1 John 3:8].

I don't know it is accurate to say that Satan corrupted them, although I agree Satan was the (or one) corrupting influence.

What I mean is that Adam was created a living soul, he was flesh. He had the desires of the flesh. The fruit was tempting to the flesh. Satan tempted Adam with something desirable to Adam.

I agree Adam was not created evil. But Adam did sin knowing he was disobeying God in fulfilling his own desires.

 

[Silverhair]

Profound. Did He tell us how?


But you did make a statement about God's will.

You keep asking questions but do not provide any support for your position.

I trust what the bible says you on the other hand seem to question what it says.

You have to prove that your views align with scripture I do not have to prove mine align with yours.

 

[JonC]

So if you do not believe that a person has a free will then all things have to be dictated, correct?

Why would you assume that???

I said that I do not believe libertarian free will exists.
I never said that a person does not have free will.

 

[Charlie24]

So the corrupting influence was in the Garden according to God's permissive will to accomplish God's determinate will. I agree though the distinction between permissive and determinate wills is largely imaginary. The Serpent was sent as was the lying spirit was sent to the mouths of Ahab's prophets of Baal.

But the end of Redemption is a new heaven and a new earth into which it is impossible for sin and death to enter. The children of God cannot "choose" to sin, because they are born of God [1 John 3:9 ] for Whom it is impossible to lie [Hebrews 6:18].

God allows you to live and do as you please, even sin, but He didn't predetermine that you sin.

He gave you a choice to keep sinning, or by way of His plan determined for you before the foundation of the world, to escape "the wages of sin is death."

 

[atpollard]

God allows you to live and do as you please, even sin, but He didn't predetermine that you sin.

He gave you a choice to keep sinning, or by way of His plan determined for you before the foundation of the world, to escape "the wages of sin is death."

I think it is true that God “allows” men the freedom to sin, but I believe that comes up short against the reality. Every human being goes beyond merely being capable of sin and experientially, every human being ultimately DOES CHOOSE TO sin. This makes Christ (the God-man) not merely a curious historical fact in that he lived a sinless life, but an absolute necessity to the Divine Plan as the ONLY WAY that one can live a sinless life.

Human “sin” is more than a mere possibility, it is a metaphysical certainty. It is the plan created to bring glory to the “SOLUTION” (Jesus Christ’s birth, life, death resurrection).

 

[Charlie24]

God allows you to live and do as you please, even sin, but He didn't predetermine that you sin.

He gave you a choice to keep sinning, or by way of His plan determined for you before the foundation of the world, to escape "the wages of sin is death."

Aaron, the predestination of man is NOT the individual being chosen for salvation.

It is being predestined to His plan for man to escape the wrath to come.

Being justified before God by grace through faith, and being conformed into the image of His Son.

 

[Silverhair]

I think it is true that God “allows” men the freedom to sin, but I believe that comes up short against the reality. Every human being goes beyond merely being capable of sin and experientially, every human being ultimately DOES CHOOSE TO sin. This makes Christ (the God-man) not merely a curious historical fact in that he lived a sinless life, but an absolute necessity to the Divine Plan as the ONLY WAY that one can live a sinless life.

Human “sin” is more than a mere possibility, it is a metaphysical certainty. It is the plan created to bring glory to the “SOLUTION” (Jesus Christ’s birth, life, death resurrection).

God allows man, via his free will, to sin and He also allows man, via his free will, to choose to trust in Him. To deny that clear biblical reality is to deny the word of God.

You seem more than willing to accept the fact man sins but really struggle with the fact that man also chooses to trust in God for his salvation.

It seems you are letting your religion determine what you believe rather than believing what the bible says.

 

[Aaron]

You keep asking questions but do not provide any support for your position.

I thought it was evident.

I said:
Because it was God's will [that the Son was to be the Redeemer of the world from the very beginning], and the reason He prepared the Rest on the Seventh Day.

I cited the following Scripture:

Hebrews 4:3-4 NLT
For only we who believe can enter his rest. [Believe in what? Christ and Him crucified] As for the others, God said, "In my anger I took an oath: 'They will never enter my place of rest,'" even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: "On the seventh day God rested from all his work." (Genesis 2:2)

That was always God's will, from the beginning. For God's will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time. Hebrews 10:10 NLT

And that is the reason Christ entered the world. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Hebrews 10:7

But to elaborate further, to enter into God's rest, or sabbath, means to cease from our own works of righteousness, and to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ. We who believe, can enter his rest, Hebrews 4:3.

And that rest has been ready since He made the world, Hebrews 4:3. The Author of Hebrews, I believe Paul, cited Genesis 2:2 to prove that fact, Hebrews 4:4.

That means that the Cross wasn't a plan B, or a contingency plan. But THE Plan, and there was ever only one Plan. And that was that Christ should be the Savior of the world, and thereby assume the Throne in Heaven.

I know many believe that God's original will was that Adam live forever in obedience, and that He knew Adam would would be corrupted and disobey, and therefore built the remedy for sin into His plan 'before' Day One.

That is not what I mean. And that is not what the Apostle is saying.

I mean that the Cross was always the Plan, meaning, that the Fall was intended.

Could it have been any other way, since Christ bears the marks of the Cross in eternity, and that it is central to His Identity?

 

[Aaron]

Aaron, the predestination of man is NOT the individual being chosen for salvation.

It is being predestined to His plan for man to escape the wrath to come.

Being justified before God by grace through faith, and being conformed into the image of His Son.

Except that's not really what Paul said to the Romans, is it.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. [Romans 8:29-30]

Because those of whom he had knowledge before they came into existence, were marked out by him to be made like his Son, so that he might be the first among a band of brothers: And those who were marked out by him were named; and those who were named were given righteousness; and to those to whom he gave righteousness, in the same way he gave glory. - Romans 8:29-30 BBE

 

[Silverhair]

I thought it was evident.

I said:
Because it was God's will [that the Son was to be the Redeemer of the world from the very beginning], and the reason He prepared the Rest on the Seventh Day.

I cited the following Scripture:

Hebrews 4:3-4 NLT
For only we who believe can enter his rest. [Believe in what? Christ and Him crucified] As for the others, God said, "In my anger I took an oath: 'They will never enter my place of rest,'" even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: "On the seventh day God rested from all his work." (Genesis 2:2)

That was always God's will, from the beginning. For God's will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time. Hebrews 10:10 NLT

And that is the reason Christ entered the world. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Hebrews 10:7

But to elaborate further, to enter into God's rest, or sabbath, means to cease from our own works of righteousness, and to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ. We who believe, can enter his rest, Hebrews 4:3.

And that rest has been ready since He made the world, Hebrews 4:3. The Author of Hebrews, I believe Paul, cited Genesis 2:2 to prove that fact, Hebrews 4:4.

That means that the Cross wasn't a plan B, or a contingency plan. But THE Plan, and there was ever only one Plan. And that was that Christ should be the Savior of the world, and thereby assume the Throne in Heaven.

I know many believe that God's original will was that Adam live forever in obedience, and that He knew Adam would would be corrupted and disobey, and therefore built the remedy for sin into His plan 'before' Day One.

That is not what I mean. And that is not what the Apostle is saying.

I mean that the Cross was always the Plan, meaning, that the Fall was intended.

Could it have been any other way, since Christ bears the marks of the Cross in eternity, and that it is central to His Identity?

Well what you have proven is man's free will in his choosing to trust in Christ Jesus or not.

But I do have to disagree that there was no plan B. God placed Adam in the garden and he had a right relationship with God. You either have to say God determined that Adam would fall or that Adam chose to fall.

Since I do not believe that God determined the fall that means that if Adam had chosen to reject the offer of the devil then the cross would not have been necessary as sin would not have entered the world.

So in effect the cross was the plan to deal with the fall of Adam.

Paul is writing from hind sight, so you need to take that in to consideration.

 

[Charlie24]

Except that's not really what Paul said to the Romans, is it.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. [Romans 8:29-30]

Because those of whom he had knowledge before they came into existence, were marked out by him to be made like his Son, so that he might be the first among a band of brothers: And those who were marked out by him were named; and those who were named were given righteousness; and to those to whom he gave righteousness, in the same way he gave glory. - Romans 8:29-30 BBE

Yes, He foreknew who would believe and be saved, and through His plan of redemption He predestined us to be conformed into the image of His Son.

Those He foreknew would believe, He called us through the hearing of the Gospel.

Rom. 10:14 is how man is brought to his destination.

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?