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Does Free Will Limit God?
- Thread starter Layman
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That would depend on whether God want's robots or free will agents to love and worship Him.
Layman
Member
Hello Brother Charlie, thank you for your response.
If it’s God’s desire to save everyone, couldn’t He save those who freely choose to reject Him anyway, or is He choosing not to exercise that power?
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I should have welcomed you to the boards, better late than never!
Welcome to the boards, friend.
No He can't save those who reject His Son. God placed Laws into effect that must be honored by all of creation, even God Himself.
The Law of sin and death and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, that Paul discussed, are the most powerful Laws in the universe.
The Law of sin and death demands a spiritual death for sinner, eternal separation from God. If this Law is not obeyed by God, then He is a liar by declaration of His own authority.
The same goes for the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. This Law promises the sinner everlasting life with God by grace through faith in His Son.
Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
There is not salvation offered any other way. If people freely choose to disregard God, is God impotent because we choose the curse? Far from it. He is their Judge and will be magnified over them anyway.
Mathetes66
Member
If God wants everyone to come to Him, but they freely choose not to, does He no longer have the power to save them?
Isaiah 59
Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, so that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, so that it cannot hear: 2BUT--your iniquities have separated between you & your God & your sins have hid his face from you, so that he will not hear.
3For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
4None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
5They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.
6Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands. 7Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths. 8The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
9THEREFORE is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness. 10We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men. 11We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us.
12BECAUSE our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them; 13In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood. 14And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. 15Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
16And he saw that there was no man & wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. 17For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
18According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence. 19So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
And he saw that there was no man & wondered that there was no intercessor...
2 Cor 10:4-7 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5casting down arguments & every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled. Do you look at things according to the outward appearance?
Isaiah 59
Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, so that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, so that it cannot hear: 2BUT--your iniquities have separated between you & your God & your sins have hid his face from you, so that he will not hear.
3For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
4None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
5They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.
6Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands. 7Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths. 8The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
9THEREFORE is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness. 10We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men. 11We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us.
12BECAUSE our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them; 13In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood. 14And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. 15Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
16And he saw that there was no man & wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. 17For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
18According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence. 19So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
And he saw that there was no man & wondered that there was no intercessor...
2 Cor 10:4-7 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5casting down arguments & every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled. Do you look at things according to the outward appearance?
Layman
Member
So would you say that He wants to save everyone, but if they won’t obey and He has no other choice, He set aside His mercy and will inflict wrath instead?
Greetings to you Layman. Hope and peace to you and yours. I am on a little vacation so don’t have much time at the moment to respond to things. I have only read your OP and no other posts in this thread.
Regarding your question, “ if they freely choose not to, does He no longer have the power to save them?” Quick answer, yes…He still has the power to save them. If He were to so choose. Howerer, we know based on what He has shown us to be His nature…He will not.
In other words, it is true that God has bound himself to His law and chosen to work salvation through His “just” law. So we are confident that God being “just”….will in fact be just. That does not mean that God is governed by some external source other than himself. God can do whatever He pleases. It’s just that what He was pleased to do was be the “justifier” and “just” and bring reconciliation and salvation through His perfect and just law (which is simply a reflection of His nature).
Peace to you brother
Again, the issue is not whether any poster's speculation answers the question, but what does God's word say.
1) If God wants... Some might read this as suggesting God might not want everyone to come to him. Scripture is clear, God desires all people to be saved according to His redemption plan, but not by compulsion, which is a false doctrine claim.
2) God has the power to accomplish whatever He wants to accomplish, He is God Almighty.
3) God's redemption plan is to redeem all those individuals whose faith He credits as righteousness. Thus salvation does not depend upon those who will to be saved, or do works to be saved, but upon God alone.
4) As to the thread title question, yes, of course God can and sometimes does limit our autonomous will, such as when He hardens hearts, Romans 11. We all operate with the purview allowed by God.
Based upon their actions and choices yes.
God cannot lie. Do you think that makes Him weak because He cannot do something? When God says He will judge sin and we choose our sin rather than Jesus’ payment for our sin, yes, God is not going to lie and have mercy on us. Isaiah 59 posted before is a great explanation.
Can we assume that God intended to save all lost sinners by the Cross of Christ, or did He intended to save those whom Jesus died for in stead of?
Layman
Member
Ah, so God will not act until man freely acts first, perhaps by some limitation He puts on Himself, but a limitation nonetheless.
No. As you said, there’s things He can and can’t do that have to be in line with his own nature.
I’ve read Isaiah 59 and what it demonstrates to me is how bound to sin man is, yet God will extend His hand of mercy anyway. There’s not one positive thing God had to say about man.
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Layman
Member
I would say - He died for those He intended to save.
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Correct
I have no idea where such nonsense come from. Christ died as a ransom for all, those to be saved and those never to be saved. Thus He provides the means of reconciliation to anyone who hears and understands the gospel, but only those who "receive the reconciliation" are those God intended to save.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Which would be the whole world 1Jn 2:2.
That was His intent, John 3:17, God will not force anyone to come to Him so we see that while His intent was to save all He will only save those that freely come to Him in faith. Ephesians 2:8-9
I'd say "no", as salvation could have been theirs. God "desires that nobody perish but all come to repentance", for He "takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked".
I'd say it is because of God's nature that salvation has been made avaliable to all men, that He desires all to be saved, and takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. This does not infringe on free-will anymore than the nature of those who reject Him infringes on their own free will.
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Lost sinners have free will remaining to reject, but do they have any to choose Jesus as Lord and Savior?
They can make the choice (it is still free will). They reject because their deeds are evil, their minds are set on the flesh.
It is the same with God. Can God (does God have the ability) to lie? Yes. Even a human child has that ability. BUT it is impossible for God to lie. Why? His nature (God will not lie).
Likewise, can (ability) man repent apart from God? Yes, all man has to do is turn to God. BUT it is impossible because man's mind is set on the flesh (man won't).
If God does not get what He wants, He is not sovereign.
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