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Does Free Will Limit God?

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JonC

Moderator
Moderator
If God does not get what He wants, He is not sovereign.
He does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked.
He desired Israel in the OT to repent.
He desired Israel's obedience rather than the blood of bulls.
He desires none perish but all repent.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
If God does not get what He wants, He is not sovereign.

Whether God gets what He wants or not does not have any affect on His being sovereign.

He desires all to come to repentance but not all do so by your logic He is not longer sovereign.

Thus we see that your logic is faulty.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Lost sinners have free will remaining to reject, but do they have any to choose Jesus as Lord and Savior?

God would disagree with that.

God calls lost sinners to repentance
1] through creation Rom_1:20
2] the conviction of the Holy Spirit Joh_16:8-9
3] the gospel message Rom_1:16
4] observing Christians lives 1Pe_2:12

So unless you think God is is a liar then He must think that man can hear and believe the gospel message and turn to Him in faith.

Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

By your logic Paul should have told him there is nothing you can do and you could not even really ask that question as you would never want to be saved. Which then begs the question of why Paul even preached the gospel message at all?
 

Ben1445

Active Member
Lost sinners have free will remaining to reject, but do they have any to choose Jesus as Lord and Savior?
Yes. (Like you had no idea I would say that)
Especially when the gospel is given, we all, that is each and every person, not just some who Reformed theology thinks are intended, are able to respond to God’s revelation of Himself.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Yes. (Like you had no idea I would say that)
Especially when the gospel is given, we all, that is each and every person, not just some who Reformed theology thinks are intended, are able to respond to God’s revelation of Himself.
How can those who by very nature though refuse to acknowledge God as sovereign over them get saved by and of themselves?
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
They can make the choice (it is still free will). They reject because their deeds are evil, their minds are set on the flesh.

It is the same with God. Can God (does God have the ability) to lie? Yes. Even a human child has that ability. BUT it is impossible for God to lie. Why? His nature (God will not lie).

Likewise, can (ability) man repent apart from God? Yes, all man has to do is turn to God. BUT it is impossible because man's mind is set on the flesh (man won't).
God can never do anything contrary to His nature and attributes so cannot even conceive of uttering a lie
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
He does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked.
He desired Israel in the OT to repent.
He desired Israel's obedience rather than the blood of bulls.
He desires none perish but all repent.
His will in salvation shall be accomplished and fulfilled exactly as He intended
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
His will in salvation shall be accomplished and fulfilled exactly as He intended
His will (His plan) is going to be accomplished. All that believe will be saved and will be a part of the Elect (Christ).

But God desires that none perish, takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, etc.

Here we need to distinguish between God's will as His desire and God's will as His plan.

God is sovereign, but He is not a whiny child.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
God can never do anything contrary to His nature and attributes so cannot even conceive of uttering a lie.
I believe God can understand uttering a lie. I believe God has the power to utter a lie.

But I also believe it is impossible for God to lie because He will not as it is contrary to His nature.
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
Its was Gods will for Nineveh to find salvation.
The free will of Jonah put that on hold.
So when Jonah finally went to Nineveh - was that by free will?
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
His will (His plan) is going to be accomplished. All that believe will be saved and will be a part of the Elect (Christ).

But God desires that none perish, takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, etc.

Here we need to distinguish between God's will as His desire and God's will as His plan.

God is sovereign, but He is not a whiny child.
His election and predestination is per the individual, not per the plan
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Its was Gods will for Nineveh to find salvation.
The free will of Jonah put that on hold.
So when Jonah finally went to Nineveh - was that by free will?
Same way, was that Paul free will that got Him saved and commissioned as an Apostle of Christ, or due to the will of God for His life?
 

Layman

Member
I have no idea where such nonsense come from. Christ died as a ransom for all, those to be saved and those never to be saved. Thus He provides the means of reconciliation to anyone who hears and understands the gospel, but only those who "receive the reconciliation" are those God intended to save.

This "nonsense" comes from letting the text say what it says. If he died as a ransom for all, then all would be saved. In context, "all" refers to the kings and rulers.
 

Layman

Member
I'd say it is because of God's nature that salvation has been made avaliable to all men, that He desires all to be saved, and takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. This does not infringe on free-will anymore than the nature of those who reject Him infringes on their own free will.

It would seem to me that if God desired everyone to be saved, then He could save everyone regardless of their choice to reject Him. It is true that He takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked in one sense, and in another sense, He does.

Deuteronomy 28:63 (ESV) - And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
I have no idea where such nonsense come from. Christ died as a ransom for all, those to be saved and those never to be saved. Thus He provides the means of reconciliation to anyone who hears and understands the gospel, but only those who "receive the reconciliation" are those God intended to save.
This nonsense is nowhere in scripture

Those Christ died for He by Hs Death reconciled them to God, its a done deal Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Does this scripture say ?

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were provided the means reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

NO
 

Layman

Member
Which would be the whole world 1Jn 2:2.
That was His intent, John 3:17, God will not force anyone to come to Him so we see that while His intent was to save all He will only save those that freely come to Him in faith. Ephesians 2:8-9

If the whole world was propitiated for, then everybody would be saved, but we know that isn't the case. John's consistent usage of "world" when referring to salvation is always limited to a specific group of people. In this case, he's talking about "us," the believers. Ephesians 2:8-9 says plainly that faith is a gift of God and not something we can attain by our own will.
 
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