Does Free Will Limit God?

[Charlie24]

Thank you Brothers @Charlie24 and @Silverhair for sharing your insight. I understand where both of you are coming from and I believe you have thought through your positions with the highest degree of integrity. I'll share with you how I see it.

When I look at these texts, I see an already accomplished reality.

1 John 2:2 (ESV) - He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Matthew 1:21 (ESV) - She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.

Hebrews 10:14 (ESV) - For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Notice the tenses. He is this. He will do this. He has done that. I do not believe it is possible to understand it to mean that He might do this and could do that when following the grammar.

But, for the sake of argument, if I were to affirm that the atonement was only something that is made available, and we must freely choose to accept it before it can be applied, I see it presenting a number of other problems.

John 10:27 (ESV) - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Romans 8:30 (ESV) - For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Ephesians 1:4 (ESV) - Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

How can God know who His sheep are unless their identity has already been established? How can God have foreknowledge of those He intends to be conformed to the image of His Son if their own act of belief is what causes them to be revealed to Him? How can God make a choice before the foundation of the world if the intended result may or may not come to pass?

These aren't the only reasons, but I hope this helps you to understand that we monergists have a good reason to believe what we believe and have carefully examined our position also. The main difference between us is that we believe that faith can't be exercised unless the ability to do so has been given by God. Synergists believe that faith is something they can exercise by their own will. The good news is that we can still be united and share the same Gospel message with anybody we encounter—that if you believe in Jesus Christ, you will be saved.

Here's the thing, Layman. God knows through His foreknowledge everyone who will be born into this world, He knows who will be saved and who will not before they are born.

God has not predestined the individual to be saved, as far as who will or will not be saved, He has predestined man to a plan of redemption to be conformed into the image of Christ.

Rom. 8:29
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Before I was born God foreknew I would repent and believe the Gospel, He predestined for me a way that I could be saved through His plan of Redemption in Christ Jesus.

"that he might be the firstborn among many brethren," means that Christ is the Captain of the redemption plan having paid the price for our sins on the Cross, which made our salvation possible.

 

[Salty]

Can I use this example.
I am a retired a driving instructor - On the road test, at the first intersection there was a stop sign.
At times student would not make a proper stop. Now, I did not have foreknowledge, but
with my general knowledge, I knew he would end up failing the test. Does this apply to the OP at all?

 

[Charlie24]

Can I use this example.
I am a retired a driving instructor - On the road test, at the first intersection there was a stop sign.
At times student would not make a proper stop. Now, I did not have foreknowledge, but
with my general knowledge, I knew he would end up failing the test. Does this apply to the OP at all?

Yes it does. The instructor knew from the actions of the student he would not meet the required standard.

Although in this example the instructor did not know what the actions of the student would be from the very beginning, but did know before the student.

The instructor knew beforehand he could not give a permit ()eternal life, e.i. the OP) to the student.

 

[Van]

This "nonsense" comes from letting the text say what it says. If he died as a ransom for all, then all would be saved. In context, "all" refers to the kings and rulers.

While I agree in part, narrowing the scope of all based on context, my specific conclusion differs. I think "all" refers to all humanity, those to be saved and those never to be saved.

And I disagree that paying the ransom automatically saves those ransomed. Paying the ransom provided the means of reconciliation for those God chooses to transfer into Christ based on crediting their faith as righteousness.

 

[Van]

This nonsense is nowhere in scripture

Those Christ died for He by Hs Death reconciled them to God, its a done deal Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Does this scripture say ?

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were provided the means reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

NO

On and on, verse after verse, these poster simply obfuscate the obvious.

Romans 5:10 NASB
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved]by His life.​

All this verse says if we were unsaved, before and when God saved us. The group refers to Paul and those who had been saved at the time Paul wrote the verse. These had been transferred into Christ and reconciled by the washing of regeneration.

Next having been saved from the penalty of sin, by being reconciled to God, we will be saved (present and future aspects of salvation) through progressive sanctification, freeing us from the power of sin, and ultimate sanctification, freeing us from the presence of sin.

 

[JonC]

This "nonsense" comes from letting the text say what it says. If he died as a ransom for all, then all would be saved. In context, "all" refers to the kings and rulers.

Your conclusion (if/then) statement is wrong.

Some believe that Christ died as a ransom for all of humanity (as a whole). This would not mean all are saved but that everything is Christ-Centered (salvation, judgment, rewards, condemnation).

Others believe that Christ ransomed all individually, resulting in the same Christ-centeredness. The condemnation for those ransomed but still lost is that Christ has come and they rejected Him because their works were evil.

 

[Ben1445]

This "nonsense" comes from letting the text say what it says. If he died as a ransom for all, then all would be saved. In context, "all" refers to the kings and rulers.

The purpose for this statement is a point to be discussed in another thread. The takeaway from your pov is that God wants and will inevitably have to be saved, kings and rulers.
Presidents, Trump, Biden, Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc…
Winston Churchill, Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, etc…
Nero, Claudius, Domitian, etc…

If these are the people that God wills to be saved, I would like to read whatever history books you are reading.
I don’t list any of these saying that they could not be saved. I think you get my point though.

It is very clear to me that it is not only kings and rulers.
This is a surprise turn from the rote definition of the Calvinist all.
Did I misunderstand your post? I didn’t see this coming at all.

 

[Brightfame52]

On and on, verse after verse, these poster simply obfuscate the obvious.

​

Romans 5:10 NASB ​

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved]by His life. ​

All this verse says if we were unsaved, before and when God saved us. The group refers to Paul and those who had been saved at the time Paul wrote the verse. These had been transferred into Christ and reconciled by the washing of regeneration.

Next having been saved from the penalty of sin, by being reconciled to God, we will be saved (present and future aspects of salvation) through progressive sanctification, freeing us from the power of sin, and ultimate sanctification, freeing us from the presence of sin.

That nonsense you talking isnt scripture. Folk were reconciled[past tesne aorist] to God by His Death Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Ben1445]

That nonsense you talking isnt scripture. Folk were reconciled[past tesne aorist] to God by His Death Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

If we weren’t enemies we wouldn’t need to be reconciled.

 

[Brightfame52]

If we weren’t enemies we wouldn’t need to be reconciled.

That doesnt make sense in light of what that scripture says. They were reconciled to God by His death WHILE BEING ENEMIES

 

[Ben1445]

That doesnt make sense in light of what that scripture says. They were reconciled to God by His death WHILE BEING ENEMIES

When else would you need to be reconciled?

 

[Van]

That nonsense you talking isnt scripture. Folk were reconciled[past tesne aorist] to God by His Death Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Yes, those reconciled were reconciled in the past, at the time Paul wrote the verse.

 

[Brightfame52]

When else would you need to be reconciled?

And your point ? Because you haven't yet made any sense

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, those reconciled were reconciled in the past, at the time Paul wrote the verse.

They were reconciled in the past [aorist tesnse] by Christs Death in the past, when or while being enemies [present tense]

Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life

"were enemies" is in the present tense in the greek, reconciled past tense. So the elect whom Christ died for in the past, even while they are presently enemies/unbelievers, their status b4 God is reconciled to Him by Christs death. Now you can deny it all you want, or try to subvert it, and handle scripture deceitfully.

 

[Van]

They were reconciled in the past [aorist tesnse] by Christs Death in the past, when or while being enemies [present tense]

Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life

"were enemies" is in the present tense in the greek, reconciled past tense. So the elect whom Christ died for in the past, even while they are presently enemies/unbelievers, their status b4 God is reconciled to Him by Christs death. Now you can deny it all you want, or try to subvert it, and handle scripture deceitfully.

Now we have an absurd argument hoisted to obfuscate.

Since how far before the time of Paul's writings is not specified this addition is offered, they were reconciled when Christ died. Of course this ignores that we have the ministry of reconciliation, where we beg the lost to be reconciled to God. Nope, take all those verses out of your bible, everyone was reconciled when He died and no opportunity for reconciliation exists.

These advocates of nonsense just go on and on.

 

[Brightfame52]

Now we have an absurd argument hoisted to obfuscate.

Since how far before the time of Paul's writings is not specified this addition is offered, they were reconciled when Christ died. Of course this ignores that we have the ministry of reconciliation, where we beg the lost to be reconciled to God. Nope, take all those verses out of your bible, everyone was reconciled when He died and no opportunity for reconciliation exists.

These advocates of nonsense just go on and on.

You still dont get it. Yet that scripture makes it plain as day.

 

[Brightfame52]

Now we have an absurd argument hoisted to obfuscate.

Since how far before the time of Paul's writings is not specified this addition is offered, they were reconciled when Christ died. Of course this ignores that we have the ministry of reconciliation, where we beg the lost to be reconciled to God. Nope, take all those verses out of your bible, everyone was reconciled when He died and no opportunity for reconciliation exists.

These advocates of nonsense just go on and on.

The Ministry of reconciliation isnt to the lost, its to the reconciled. It tells you that in Vs 18-19

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Its to them reconciled by Jesus Christ, and to them whose sins are not imputed them, thats what Paul is preaching. The imperative in Vs 20

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Is only for them,, not the lost in sin.

 

[Ben1445]

They were reconciled in the past [aorist tesnse] by Christs Death in the past, when or while being enemies [present tense]

Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life

"were enemies" is in the present tense in the greek, reconciled past tense. So the elect whom Christ died for in the past, even while they are presently enemies/unbelievers, their status b4 God is reconciled to Him by Christs death. Now you can deny it all you want, or try to subvert it, and handle scripture deceitfully.

You are not still a sinner?

 

[Brightfame52]

You are not still a sinner?

Huh ? What in the world are you talking about now ? Nothing about the text.

 

[Ben1445]

And your point ? Because you haven't yet made any sense

If you were interested in listening to anybody, we could have a discussion. since you don't appear to be interested in doing anything but magnifying your own intelligence, I don't know what I can tell you that you would be interested in hearing.
All I can say is that the gospel is simple. Calvinists do not understand it because they try to overcomplicate it. Every time I sit down with a calvinist and I ever begin to make sense to them, I am told that I just don't understand. That salvation is difficult to understand is to have a different definition of salvation.

Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

1 Corinthians 1:27 (KJV) But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;


1 Corinthians 1:17 (KJV) For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1 Corinthians 2:4 (KJV) And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:


Maybe it doesn't make sense because you rely on man's wisdom for your salvation.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

From what I have read I think it is rather

Ephesians 4:14 (KJV) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

the sleight of men refers to Calvin, and men like him who would limit the reach of the grace of God from those who were intended to be its recipients.
Sleight of men takes the plain meaning of the word world and turns it into some other different meaning that only the enlightened specially privileged calvinist can understand and not children.