I would say no, since God was going to make sure that Jonah would end up in Nineveh one way or another.
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Does Free Will Limit God?
- Thread starter Layman
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I would say no, since God was going to make sure that Jonah would end up in Nineveh one way or another.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
1} you have misunderstood what propitiation means
2} John does not fit your view on how he uses world
3] whole world actually means whole world
4} Eph 2:8 does not say faith is the gift, salvation is the gift
5} we do not save ourselves but God saves those tat freely trust in Him
You started out wrong and continued it throughout your post.
Definition you need to know
Propitiation The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of one making propitious. {in biblical theology, God} 1Jn_2:2
Propitious Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God. Webster
You are correct to say this. as the bible is very clear on this. The Son came to die a covenant death for the many Isa.53 speaks of.God has never intended to save all men ever bore. Ho does save all men , not the Jewsonly, but all the children of God scattered abroad;
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
John is clear, He died for the children the Father gave to Him. He died for the seed of Abraham.
That is your Calvinist view. Choosing is about adoption, the redemption of our bodies. Rom. 8
There is no other way but Jesus. That is why He is the propitiation for the whole world. Jesus offers salvation. Those who refuse it will not be. Jesus told His audience take heed how ye hear. This is Jesus saying you have a choice to make, make the right choice. It doesn’t mean use the good hearing aids instead of the ear trumpet.
Anyone God chooses to spend eternity with Him, they will.
Obviously I don't doubt that God desires all to be saved, that nobody perish, and does not desire the destruction of the wicked....because the Bible states that.
I do not think God not desiring the destruction of the wicked but desiring all repent is speaking of destroying in terms of causing Israel's defeat and them spread out among the nations.
I believe the destruction of the wicked God is speaking of is the "Second death". The readon is this is contrasted with God desiring all come to repentance.
In Deuteronomy what we see is God using other nations to conquer Iarael and drive them from the land. That is not the destruction of the wicked
Could God cause everybody to be saved? I suppose so, if that was His plan. But then man would not have been made in His image....might as well pick cats to save (cats need saving).
Who does God save against that person's will? Nobody.
But one does not contradict the other (think of Oaul's words to the sailors in Acts).
I took a look at many of the reputable translations, and all of them fit the first definition.
(KJV) - And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(NASB) - and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(ESV) - He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
(CSB) - He himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.
(NIV) - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
(NLT) - He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
The text is clear to me that propitiation accomplishes its purpose. It does not make atonement for sins a possibility.
I would think that if Jonah's will was truly be free in a libertarian sense, he would have been able to keep resisting God until God gave up and moved on.
Another point (sometimes missed) - the passage speaks of Christ as the Propitiation or atonement, not those who benefit.
What I mean is the passage itself does not support (or contradict) your view.
An example - Medication x is the cure for all human illnesses.
I'm just pointing that out because it is an error both sides make when defending their positions, but both sides are reading their position into the passage.
I do not believe libertarian free will exists (I was speaking of free will, not libertarian free will....which probably explains our disagreement as we were probably talking past one another).
Let me see if I can hopefully clarify the meaning of propitiation/satisfaction, at leas to where you can see how I see it.
Paul told us that we are dead in trespass and sins, no man seeks after God. This is where John Calvin gave birth to the Total Depravity.
When Christ died on the Cross taking all of our sins upon Himself, He took our sins out of the way in order for us to be brought back in favor with God. God's wrath on man's sin was then appeased by Christ taking our sins out of the way.
Now let's look at Rom. 3:25,
"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"
Notice here that Paul says, ""Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood."
Christ is the satisfaction for our sins, who took out of the way our sins, in order for us to be saved by "faith in His blood."
Can you see it? You cannot benefit from what Christ did for us (taking away our sins) without faith in His blood.
Christ has cleared the way for us to escape ours sins through Christ, but faith must be in the blood of Christ.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Please read what you said and then look at the definitions again
Definitions you need to know
Propitiation The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of one making propitious. {in biblical theology, God} 1Jn_2:2
Propitious Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God. Webster
Propitiation did accomplish it's purpose: It made God Propitious.
It made Him
1] gracious or merciful
2] ready to forgive sins
and to
3] bestow blessings
This just what we see in scripture. Those that hear and believe the gospel message will be saved.
We do not save ourselves but God saves those that freely trust in Him.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Those that God chooses to spend eternity with are those that have freely trusted in Him.
I'm sure you've heard the phrase, "sin was covered by Christ."
This is the satisfaction for our sins to the Father (taking our sins out of the way) that made it possible for us to be saved by grace through faith
This is the basis for hearing some say that man is not sent to Hell for his sins, they were covered by Christ, man is sent to Hell because he did not repent by faith in Christ, the only way to escape.
One last thing and I'll let it go. When Christ was the satisfaction for our sins, he did NOT forgive sins, He covered them.
If man dies in this life without repenting by faith in Christ, he will die in his sins.
Very well put Charlie Two Dozen!
Thank you Brothers @Charlie24 and @Silverhair for sharing your insight. I understand where both of you are coming from and I believe you have thought through your positions with the highest degree of integrity. I'll share with you how I see it.
When I look at these texts, I see an already accomplished reality.
1 John 2:2 (ESV) - He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Matthew 1:21 (ESV) - She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.
Hebrews 10:14 (ESV) - For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Notice the tenses. He is this. He will do this. He has done that. I do not believe it is possible to understand it to mean that He might do this and could do that when following the grammar.
But, for the sake of argument, if I were to affirm that the atonement was only something that is made available, and we must freely choose to accept it before it can be applied, I see it presenting a number of other problems.
John 10:27 (ESV) - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
Romans 8:30 (ESV) - For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Ephesians 1:4 (ESV) - Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
How can God know who His sheep are unless their identity has already been established? How can God have foreknowledge of those He intends to be conformed to the image of His Son if their own act of belief is what causes them to be revealed to Him? How can God make a choice before the foundation of the world if the intended result may or may not come to pass?
These aren't the only reasons, but I hope this helps you to understand that we monergists have a good reason to believe what we believe and have carefully examined our position also. The main difference between us is that we believe that faith can't be exercised unless the ability to do so has been given by God. Synergists believe that faith is something they can exercise by their own will. The good news is that we can still be united and share the same Gospel message with anybody we encounter—that if you believe in Jesus Christ, you will be saved.
When I look at these texts, I see an already accomplished reality.
1 John 2:2 (ESV) - He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Matthew 1:21 (ESV) - She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.
Hebrews 10:14 (ESV) - For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Notice the tenses. He is this. He will do this. He has done that. I do not believe it is possible to understand it to mean that He might do this and could do that when following the grammar.
But, for the sake of argument, if I were to affirm that the atonement was only something that is made available, and we must freely choose to accept it before it can be applied, I see it presenting a number of other problems.
John 10:27 (ESV) - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
Romans 8:30 (ESV) - For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Ephesians 1:4 (ESV) - Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
How can God know who His sheep are unless their identity has already been established? How can God have foreknowledge of those He intends to be conformed to the image of His Son if their own act of belief is what causes them to be revealed to Him? How can God make a choice before the foundation of the world if the intended result may or may not come to pass?
These aren't the only reasons, but I hope this helps you to understand that we monergists have a good reason to believe what we believe and have carefully examined our position also. The main difference between us is that we believe that faith can't be exercised unless the ability to do so has been given by God. Synergists believe that faith is something they can exercise by their own will. The good news is that we can still be united and share the same Gospel message with anybody we encounter—that if you believe in Jesus Christ, you will be saved.
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