Layman
Member
So when Jonah finally went to Nineveh - was that by free will?
I would say no, since God was going to make sure that Jonah would end up in Nineveh one way or another.
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So when Jonah finally went to Nineveh - was that by free will?
If the whole world was propitiated for, then everybody would be saved, but we know that isn't the case. John's consistent usage of "world" when referring to salvation is always limited to a specific group of people. In this case, he's talking about "us," the believers. Ephesians 2:8-9 says plainly that faith is a gift of God and not something we can attain by our own will.
You are correct to say this. as the bible is very clear on this. The Son came to die a covenant death for the many Isa.53 speaks of.God has never intended to save all men ever bore. Ho does save all men , not the Jewsonly, but all the children of God scattered abroad;I would say - He died for those He intended to save.
That is your Calvinist view. Choosing is about adoption, the redemption of our bodies. Rom. 8He instead has chosen out for Himself a peculiar people, and thru the atoning death of His Son Jesus provided and secured a real salvation for them
There is no other way but Jesus. That is why He is the propitiation for the whole world. Jesus offers salvation. Those who refuse it will not be. Jesus told His audience take heed how ye hear. This is Jesus saying you have a choice to make, make the right choice. It doesn’t mean use the good hearing aids instead of the ear trumpet.How can those who by very nature though refuse to acknowledge God as sovereign over them get saved by and of themselves?
Obviously I don't doubt that God desires all to be saved, that nobody perish, and does not desire the destruction of the wicked....because the Bible states that.It would seem to me that if God desired everyone to be saved, then He could save everyone regardless of their choice to reject Him. It is true that He takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked in one sense, and in another sense, He does.
Deuteronomy 28:63 (ESV) - And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But one does not contradict the other (think of Oaul's words to the sailors in Acts).I would say no, since God was going to make sure that Jonah would end up in Nineveh one way or another.
Definition you need to know
Propitiation The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of one making propitious. {in biblical theology, God} 1Jn_2:2
Propitious Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God. Webster
But one does not contradict the other (think of Oaul's words to the sailors in Acts).
Another point (sometimes missed) - the passage speaks of Christ as the Propitiation or atonement, not those who benefit.I took a look at many of the reputable translations, and all of them fit the first definition.
(KJV) - And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(NASB) - and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(ESV) - He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
(CSB) - He himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.
(NIV) - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
(NLT) - He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
The text is clear to me that propitiation accomplishes its purpose. It does not make atonement for sins a possibility.
I do not believe libertarian free will exists (I was speaking of free will, not libertarian free will....which probably explains our disagreement as we were probably talking past one another).I would think that if Jonah's will was truly be free in a libertarian sense, he would have been able to keep resisting God until God gave up and moved on.
The text is clear to me that propitiation accomplishes its purpose. It does not make atonement for sins a possibility.
Please read what you said and then look at the definitions againI took a look at many of the reputable translations, and all of them fit the first definition.
(KJV) - And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(NASB) - and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(ESV) - He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
(CSB) - He himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.
(NIV) - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
(NLT) - He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
The text is clear to me that propitiation accomplishes its purpose. It does not make atonement for sins a possibility.
Anyone God chooses to spend eternity with Him, they will.
Let me see if I can hopefully clarify the meaning of propitiation/satisfaction, at leas to where you can see how I see it.
Paul told us that we are dead in trespass and sins, no man seeks after God. This is where John Calvin gave birth to the Total Depravity.
When Christ died on the Cross taking all of our sins upon Himself, He took our sins out of the way in order for us to be brought back in favor with God. God's wrath on man's sin was then appeased by Christ taking our sins out of the way.
Now let's look at Rom. 3:25,
"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"
Notice here that Paul says, ""Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood."
Christ is the satisfaction for our sins, who took out of the way our sins, in order for us to be saved by "faith in His blood."
Can you see it? You cannot benefit from what Christ did for us (taking away our sins) without faith in His blood.
Christ has cleared the way for us to escape ours sins through Christ, but faith must be in the blood of Christ.
I'm sure you've heard the phrase, "sin was covered by Christ."
This is the satisfaction for our sins to the Father (taking our sins out of the way) that made it possible for us to be saved by grace through faith
This is the basis for hearing some say that man is not sent to Hell for his sins, they were covered by Christ, man is sent to Hell because he did not repent by faith in Christ, the only way to escape.
Very well put Charlie Two Dozen!... When Christ was the satisfaction for our sins, he did NOT forgive sins, He covered them. ...