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Why Did The Lord Choose from among his disciples 12 Men as Apostles and 70 Men as Elders During His Public Ministry
- Thread starter JD731
- Start date
You mean the 70 evangelists Jesus sent out to preach or the 70 elders Moses chose among the Isralites?
I believe Jesus chose 12 Disciples as the structure of 12 tribes in the OT foreshadowed this leadership beginning. Not sure why 12, although I could speculate. 12 has significance, but this may be because God chose 12 tribes (arguing the significance of the number for the number itself is circular reasoning).
I believe Jesus chose 12 Disciples as the structure of 12 tribes in the OT foreshadowed this leadership beginning. Not sure why 12, although I could speculate. 12 has significance, but this may be because God chose 12 tribes (arguing the significance of the number for the number itself is circular reasoning).
Consider this verse and the context it is in and tell me what you think.
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(1 implied here is that there will be a regeneration
2) There will be a glorious throne on which Jesus Christ sits
3) He will sit "in" this throne, not "on" it. (see Ezekiel 41 to 48)
4) From there he will judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
5) The pattern for the officials of the kingdom is shown in the days of Moses
I agree with your conclusions.
Do you then think that the OT pattern, the 12 tribes, foreshadowed what is to come rather than Christ using the OT pattern?
Also.....why 12?
I can not always answer the why but I can track the reality of a doctrine. The number 12 is God's number for his perfect government.
Why is there a fixed number of 12 apostles in the church of Jesus Christ as it relates to Israel and one (1) apostle in the church as it relates to gentiles? Since the church of Jesus Christ is an eternal entity, and there will never be any more or any less or any different apostles than those chosen in the beginning and their offices clearly indicate ruling positions after their resurrection from the dead.
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
What am I missing? What do the scholars say?
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
What am I missing? What do the scholars say?
What is the regeneration of Mt 19:28? Is it the same as the restitution of all things in the near future?
Acts 3:20-21
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
The plan for restitution of all things certainly is no mystery if all the prophets spoke of it. It might be wise to go back and read what they said.
Acts 3:20-21
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
The plan for restitution of all things certainly is no mystery if all the prophets spoke of it. It might be wise to go back and read what they said.
I guess if God used 14 then we'd ask "why 14?".
Mt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also (also means in addition to) shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. (in our church age, everlasting life is the gift of God).
So now we know for sure that the kingdom age to come when Jesus Christ is King over Israel and the whole earth that Israel will be governed by Judges after the OT pattern. Twelve tribes and twelve thrones and twelve apostles.
Now, an interesting fact: When Jesus rose from the dead there were only 11 apostles. Judas had fallen. It would be about 42 AD when Jesus chose Barnabas to replace him as the 12th apostle of Israel. This is recorded just before the beginning of the first missionary campaign of Paul in Acts 13, of all chapters. Eleven is always associated with the falling short of the standards of God and the number 13 is associated with transgressors (a word with 13 letters), which gentiles are. Paul was the 13th apostle but he was not of the 12 and he wrote 13 letters to the gentiles. The word "gentiles" is in the 13 NT epistles written by Paul 42 times and the number 42 is together in the scriptures 13 times with the last occurrence being in Re 13:5, if I remember my study correctly. The first time the word gentiles appears in Paul's epistles is in Rom 1:13. One apostle to the gentiles. The word "thirteen" does not appear in the NT. It appears in the OT in 15 verses and there is some wonderful typology associated with it that has a great bearing on the mysteries of the NT days we are living in now as well as the coming kingdom.
Rom 9:30 ¶ What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained (they did not attain - they fell short) to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Falling short is the history of Israel. You will find the number 11 all over the place and that it is connected to Israel's failure to submit themselves to God and his rule over them. It is explained in chapters Rom 7-11 in this age.
These are not coincidences.
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also (also means in addition to) shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. (in our church age, everlasting life is the gift of God).
So now we know for sure that the kingdom age to come when Jesus Christ is King over Israel and the whole earth that Israel will be governed by Judges after the OT pattern. Twelve tribes and twelve thrones and twelve apostles.
Now, an interesting fact: When Jesus rose from the dead there were only 11 apostles. Judas had fallen. It would be about 42 AD when Jesus chose Barnabas to replace him as the 12th apostle of Israel. This is recorded just before the beginning of the first missionary campaign of Paul in Acts 13, of all chapters. Eleven is always associated with the falling short of the standards of God and the number 13 is associated with transgressors (a word with 13 letters), which gentiles are. Paul was the 13th apostle but he was not of the 12 and he wrote 13 letters to the gentiles. The word "gentiles" is in the 13 NT epistles written by Paul 42 times and the number 42 is together in the scriptures 13 times with the last occurrence being in Re 13:5, if I remember my study correctly. The first time the word gentiles appears in Paul's epistles is in Rom 1:13. One apostle to the gentiles. The word "thirteen" does not appear in the NT. It appears in the OT in 15 verses and there is some wonderful typology associated with it that has a great bearing on the mysteries of the NT days we are living in now as well as the coming kingdom.
Rom 9:30 ¶ What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained (they did not attain - they fell short) to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Falling short is the history of Israel. You will find the number 11 all over the place and that it is connected to Israel's failure to submit themselves to God and his rule over them. It is explained in chapters Rom 7-11 in this age.
These are not coincidences.
Matthias was the replacement for Judas.
Paul and Barnabas would be 13 and 14.
I do believe that the choice made in Acts 1 was binding and chosen by God with the lot.
Barnabas went with Paul. If you would say that Paul went to the gentiles, I would say Barnabas as much.
Rev. 21:1-4,14
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
14. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Isaiah has plenty to say on the subject.
Using logic, it is strange that God would work so hard to send an indwelling teacher of his New Covenant only to resort to an OT expedient. I think the duty assigned to the disciples for those ten days was to wait until he got there and then he would teach them what to do.
Barnabas was not allowed to go to Europe with Paul. The gentiles lives there. Besides, God called Barnabas an apostle, and of course since he was a member of the twelve, he should have been mentioned before Paul. There are other reasons for my position.
Acts 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
It dead sure says that.
Using Scripture, it is hard to believe that God would have recorded in Acts that the replacement of Judas with Matthias was fulfillment of Scriptural prophecy if it wasn’t.
Using logic, it works out that way for me too.
I don’t think they were ignoring God when Matthias was chosen.
Furthermore, they would be able to begin the work of Christ on Pentecost not being numbered as falling short, rather, they would be a complete and ready group of God selected and sent leaders.
A more interesting question for your numerology is why the gentiles only get two.
The gentiles live everywhere. There are not only Jews in Antioch where they began all through their journey. You are taking teachings out of Scripture that are not there.
So was Paul called an apostle and sent on the same ministry as Barnabas.
Acts 13:2
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
Same work.
You are making conclusions about information that your view relies on. This is circular reasoning. I’m pretty sure top billing is not a matter of importance. If it was James would know that he would be more important than John because of his listing. He would also know that he didn’t have a hope for the right hand because Peter gets listed first. This is just an example of fabrication of doctrine from irrelevant information. Hopefully the illustration is obvious enough to not have anyone accept it or think that I believe it either. (The record on this hope is not good so far.)
I am interested.
Acts 14:12-13
And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.
These are clearly not the Jews who Barnabas is ministering to.
Barnabas was as much a minister to gentiles as Paul. That was the work to which they were called.
I don't have a problem with numbers in Scripture. There are very important things that are made clear and are taught with numbers. While there are things relevant to Scripture, in numbers, and they may even establish good doctrine, I don't think the numbers are a place to find doctrine.
My intention was not to offend.
I discuss most things that I vary in opinion on because it is exercise for the brain and the fingers (in the Bible).
I did say I was interested in your other reasons.
It looks like you also have everything figured out.
Sorry discussion can't continue.Some additional thoughts on thirteen (13)
Gen 13:13 - first mention of sinners in the KJV
Genesis 13:13
But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.
Saul, the King of Israel, lost his kingly dynasty in 1 Sam 13:13
13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.
14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee.
Solomon, the son of David and the type of Jesus Christ as King during the 1K millennium was 7 years building the temple of God in Jerusalem and was 13 years building his own house. His house was a type of the church of Jesus Christ and a house is a family.
1 kings 6:1 And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the Lord.
1 Kings 6:38 And in the eleventh year, in the month Bul, which is the eighth month, was the house finished throughout all the parts thereof, and according to all the fashion of it. So was he seven years in building it.
1 Kings 7:1
But Solomon was building his own house thirteen years, and he finished all his house. (cross reference He 3)
When both the House of God, the Temple, and the house of Jesus Christ were built, then he and his bride occupied his house.
11 And Solomon brought up the daughter of Pharaoh ( a gentile) out of the city of David unto the house that he had built for her: for he said, My wife shall not dwell in the house of David king of Israel, because the places are holy, whereunto the ark of the Lord hath come.
The number 13 is all through the scriptures associated with gentiles. And although the church of Jesus Christ, who represents his bride, has a Jewish foundation, her character is gentile. She is both of the kingdom of God and is the church of God. The Jewish apostles and elders, the foundation, the gentiles the framework, and Jesus Christ the head.
I fear the church of Jesus Christ has been dumbed down by the scholars to the point that the spiritual content and context of scriptures is lost by most. Most do not know that the whole NT is written in the OT in types, figures, and similitudes and these truths are dependent on a consistent use of words and phrases and numbers. This has been taken away by the multiplied translations, at least for the English speakers.
The reason for choosing 12 apostles and 70 elders is because these will rule with Christ over Israel through whom Christ will rule the whole world as King of kings and Lord of lords.. The house of the church is the New Jerusalem, a satellite city in the eternal state. Israel is the earthly people of God and the church is the heavenly people of God. Israel is the restored wife of Jehovah, see Hosea, and the church is the bride of Christ.
Gen 13:13 - first mention of sinners in the KJV
Genesis 13:13
But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.
Saul, the King of Israel, lost his kingly dynasty in 1 Sam 13:13
13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.
14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee.
Solomon, the son of David and the type of Jesus Christ as King during the 1K millennium was 7 years building the temple of God in Jerusalem and was 13 years building his own house. His house was a type of the church of Jesus Christ and a house is a family.
1 kings 6:1 And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the Lord.
1 Kings 6:38 And in the eleventh year, in the month Bul, which is the eighth month, was the house finished throughout all the parts thereof, and according to all the fashion of it. So was he seven years in building it.
1 Kings 7:1
But Solomon was building his own house thirteen years, and he finished all his house. (cross reference He 3)
When both the House of God, the Temple, and the house of Jesus Christ were built, then he and his bride occupied his house.
11 And Solomon brought up the daughter of Pharaoh ( a gentile) out of the city of David unto the house that he had built for her: for he said, My wife shall not dwell in the house of David king of Israel, because the places are holy, whereunto the ark of the Lord hath come.
The number 13 is all through the scriptures associated with gentiles. And although the church of Jesus Christ, who represents his bride, has a Jewish foundation, her character is gentile. She is both of the kingdom of God and is the church of God. The Jewish apostles and elders, the foundation, the gentiles the framework, and Jesus Christ the head.
I fear the church of Jesus Christ has been dumbed down by the scholars to the point that the spiritual content and context of scriptures is lost by most. Most do not know that the whole NT is written in the OT in types, figures, and similitudes and these truths are dependent on a consistent use of words and phrases and numbers. This has been taken away by the multiplied translations, at least for the English speakers.
The reason for choosing 12 apostles and 70 elders is because these will rule with Christ over Israel through whom Christ will rule the whole world as King of kings and Lord of lords.. The house of the church is the New Jerusalem, a satellite city in the eternal state. Israel is the earthly people of God and the church is the heavenly people of God. Israel is the restored wife of Jehovah, see Hosea, and the church is the bride of Christ.