For Whom Did Christ Die?

[Ben1445]

Thats your responsibility, you brought up the verse, stating something it doesnt say. You have to prove from scripture Jesus bought them with His Blood.

The only thing God has ever bought, He bought with the blood of Jesus Christ.
I didn’t think that you didn’t know what I was saying.
You said that he didn’t buy them with His blood.
You must show from Scripture what He bought mankind with that was not His blood.

 

[Brightfame52]

The only thing God has ever bought, He bought with the blood of Jesus Christ.
I didn’t think that you didn’t know what I was saying.
You said that he didn’t buy them with His blood.
You must show from Scripture what He bought mankind with that was not His blood.

You have to prove your statement because its not in scripture. This is your statement sir:

Why do the false teachers, that were bought by Christ’s blood, receive destruction?

 

[Ben1445]

It has to be studied. But I know it says nothing about the blood of Christ, that has to be proven, which isnt my burden since I didnt bring it up

You denied that it is the blood of Christ that bought them. The burden of supplying some other purchase method is on you.

 

[Brightfame52]

You denied that it is the blood of Christ that bought them. The burden of supplying some other purchase method is on you.

Where does it say it was the blood of Christ ? Thats the issue, you added that statement, it wasnt inspired by God

 

[Ben1445]

You have to prove your statement because its not in scripture. This is your statement sir:

This is a well accepted statement. That men are bought by another means is indeed a strange doctrine. It is not founded in Scripture which is why you would tell me to prove something that is so widely known. What has happened is that Scripture doesn’t support your beliefs and in order to maintain them, you push the verse off, “say it doesn’t mean that” and put it out of your mind.
If bought with something else, what, and to whom would it be paid?
Atonement is bought with the blood of Christ and is paid to the Father as the offended party.
I can’t prove that there is not some other payment. I can’t prove the non existence of something. You have to show me that there is some other payment option. Then we can discuss which payment option applies.
The burden of proof of any other payment is on you first.

 

[Ben1445]

Where does 2 Pet 2:1 mention anything about being bought with blood ? Thats adding to the text

This is a basic understanding of Scripture.
Again, please show what other payment is ever made by God for mankind.

 

[Ben1445]

So were they Sheep of Christ before they believed ? Yes or no

No.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We are not sheep before because we are not in Christ before.
When we believe in Christ, we are in Christ. When we are in Christ we are remade. We are a new creature. No longer a goat from the left, we are made a new creature, a sheep on the right.
The sheep following Jesus are the believers who follow and obey Him. It is not talking about “unsaved sheep.” This is an oxymoron and not good exegesis.

 

[Silverhair]

So were they Sheep of Christ before they believed ? Yes or no

Not according to scripture they were not. Now did Christ know who would freely come to Him, of course, He is God after all which means that He is omniscient.

 

[Zaatar71]

You FINALLY see it!!!

I’m glad you understand what propitiation is now.

I knew you could believe it!!

Yes, He actually is the propitiation for the elect sinner, anywhere in the world. The wrath of God is turned away from the elect,
The non elect are still under that wrath of God, because they have No;
propitiation,
atonement,
surety,
mediator

 

[Zaatar71]

No.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We are not sheep before because we are not in Christ before.
When we believe in Christ, we are in Christ. When we are in Christ we are remade. We are a new creature. No longer a goat from the left, we are made a new creature, a sheep on the right.
The sheep following Jesus are the believers who follow and obey Him. It is not talking about “unsaved sheep.” This is an oxymoron and not good exegesis.

Lol, Lost sheep are lost until they are found!

 

[Ben1445]

Yes, He actually is the propitiation for the elect sinner, anywhere in the world. The wrath of God is turned away from the elect,
The non elect are still under that wrath of God, because they have No;
propitiation,
atonement,
surety,
mediator

You are changing your statement now.
Unstable as water!!
You were right before when you said,

Yes indeed. Jesus has purchased the rights to all flesh

What made you change your mind? Was it just because you would have to admit an error?

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, He actually is the propitiation for the elect sinner, anywhere in the world. The wrath of God is turned away from the elect,
The non elect are still under that wrath of God, because they have No;
propitiation,
atonement,
surety,
mediator

Not what the bible says ZA but then I have noted that there are a few calvinists on this board that have a real problem understanding the words of God.

With reference to 1 John 2:2
The atonement was made for the ones that John was writing to
"propitiation for our sins"
Then he tells them but the atonement was not limited to just them
"and not for ours only"
Then he tells them who else were to be included
"but also for the whole world"

So we see a clear distinction made as to who's sins have been propitiated.

Our sins, those that already believe
and
the whole world, those that may believe and even those that will not.

 

[Ben1445]

Lol, Lost sheep are lost until they are found!

You are over applying an illustration. A physical sheep will always be a physical sheep. If the illustration was perfect, it wouldn’t be an illustration, it would be the real thing. We are not physical sheep. If you wanted to take your illustration to its fullest extent, you would have to deny original sin because the sheep has to wander before being lost. This would make all men begin as being without need of salvation. When a lost sheep is found it doesn’t become a different animal or even a new animal of the same kind. Believers are made new creatures. You selectively apply the sheep illustration beyond its original intent and therein lies your problem.

 

[Zaatar71]

Not what the bible says ZA but then I have noted that there are a few calvinists on this board that have a real problem understanding the words of God.

With reference to 1 John 2:2
The atonement was made for the ones that John was writing to
"propitiation for our sins"
Then he tells them but the atonement was not limited to just them
"and not for ours only"
Then he tells them who else were to be included
"but also for the whole world"

So we see a clear distinction made as to who's sins have been propitiated.

Our sins, those that already believe
and
the whole world, those that may believe and even those that will not.

There is no other propitiation available. He is an actual propitiation, not a potential one

 

[JesusFan]

There is no other propitiation available. He is an actual propitiation, not a potential one

Refers back to some degree to our various Pst discussions here, for if one holds to that view of the atonement, then Jesus death secured a real salvation for real people he died in their stead for

 

[Zaatar71]

You FINALLY see it!!!

I’m glad you understand what propitiation is now.

I knew you could believe it!!

Yes, He actually is the propitiation for the elect sinner, anywhere in the world. When any sinner trusts God by a God given faith it shows they are elect

 

[Brightfame52]

This is a well accepted statement. That men are bought by another means is indeed a strange doctrine. It is not founded in Scripture which is why you would tell me to prove something that is so widely known. What has happened is that Scripture doesn’t support your beliefs and in order to maintain them, you push the verse off, “say it doesn’t mean that” and put it out of your mind.
If bought with something else, what, and to whom would it be paid?
Atonement is bought with the blood of Christ and is paid to the Father as the offended party.
I can’t prove that there is not some other payment. I can’t prove the non existence of something. You have to show me that there is some other payment option. Then we can discuss which payment option applies.
The burden of proof of any other payment is on you first.

You doing a lot of talking but havent proved one shred of biblical evidence that states 2 Pet 2:1 s bought with the blood of Christ.

Its up to whoever bought up 2 Pet 2:1 to explain or show why they say its the blood of Christ here when it doesnt specify that.

 

[Brightfame52]

This is a basic understanding of Scripture.
Again, please show what other payment is ever made by God for mankind.

Prove it with scripture then ?

 

[Brightfame52]

No.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We are not sheep before because we are not in Christ before.
When we believe in Christ, we are in Christ. When we are in Christ we are remade. We are a new creature. No longer a goat from the left, we are made a new creature, a sheep on the right.
The sheep following Jesus are the believers who follow and obey Him. It is not talking about “unsaved sheep.” This is an oxymoron and not good exegesis.

Thats false. Christ said He had Sheep that were yet to hear His voice and believe Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[Brightfame52]

Not according to scripture they were not. Now did Christ know who would freely come to Him, of course, He is God after all which means that He is omniscient.

False