What Constitutes a Bona Fide Offer?

[Paleouss]

I was contemplating what would make a bona fide offer to the unbelieving. What do you think?

1. One must not be under some other dominion, power, or influence (power and dominion).

If the one that offers says, "come and be free with me in my kingdom". But the one being offered is chained in the opposing kingdom and the one who offers does nothing to remove the chains of the one offered. Is this a bona fide offer?

2. I must be capable at some level of understanding what I am being offered (enlightenment, illumination).

If the one that offers says, "come and be free with me in my kingdom". But the one being offered hears nonsense like this, “keinfei$3k 3dknvv8”. Is this a bona fide offer?

3. I must be able to reject what I desire to reject and accept what I desire to accept (freedom).

If the above points, 1 & 2, are satisfied, it seems that desiring and choosing to accept or reject is sufficient.

4. In every case, without fail, what is being offered is granted if the conditions are met.

5. In every case, without fail, the consequences of a rejection of the offer is “just”.


Peace to you brothers

 

[kyredneck]

a bona fide offer to the unbelieving. What do you think?

15 but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: being ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear: 1 Pe 3

 

[Wesley Briggman]

(1Co 2:14 KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Paleouss]

(1Co 2:14 KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Greetings Wesley. Peace and hope to you my brother.

In response to my post with multiple points, you only gave a verse. I am left to my own flawed intellect trying to connect your wisdom you wished to give me. So a couple of questions...

a. Is the verse you gave me in reference to my point #2? Or is it more of a broad application to all the points. If you intended a more broad application, will you elaborate?

Regarding 1Cor 2:14 and its interpretation. It would seem that the key words in the verse are (a) "receiveth" and (b) "foolishness" and (c) "discerned".

Regarding the word "receiveth" (dechomai). Various translation of this word are; "accept" (ESV, NASB); "does not receive" (NKJV, RSV); "receiveth not" (KJV). (I only used the word for word translations). Further, according to Strong's G1209 the word means "receive", "take", "accept", "take up".

It seems to me that what the verse is trying to communicate is more like the English word "accept" when it is translated "receive" in the KJV. That is, the word "recieveth not" in the KJV doesn't mean "is never given in any form or amount by God". It means, "is not accepted". We must further define this "is not accepted" so that one does not confuse it with saying "does not allow God to give" for God is not thwarted if He intended to give any man any form of enlightenment. This word in the KJV, "receiveth not", means "does not conclude" or "rejects as truth".

This translation, above, of the word dechomai fits well with the next word in question, mōria -- from G3474; silliness, i.e. absurdity:—foolishness. In other words, the "natural man" "rejects" the wisdom and conclusions of Spiritual things because they "appraise" them as "foolishness". It is not like the natural man doesn't see words in the Bible when he reads it. It's not like the words of a witness to him are just incoherent sounds. He hears the words, understands them, but "accepts them not" for He "appraises" them as "foolish" talk.

The last word in question was the KJV word "discerned" (anakrinō). Here I really like the NASB95 translation of "appraise". Strong's says, G350 "examine", "judge", "ask question", "search", "discern". As can be seen, imo, what all these words have in common is the word "appraise".

So in light of what I think 1Cor 2:14 is communicating. I'm not sure where to apply the verse you gave me to the OP.

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)

 

[Paleouss]

1. One must not be under some other dominion, power, or influence (power and dominion).

If the one that offers says, "come and be free with me in my kingdom". But the one being offered is chained in the opposing kingdom and the one who offers does nothing to remove the chains of the one offered. Is this a bona fide offer?

Expanding upon the OP and point #1.

Within the biblical text, the Devil is associated with the consequences of sin. For he was “a murderer from the beginning” (John 8:44) and there is “no truth in him” for “he is a liar and the father of it” (Heb 8:44). The Devil, in his rebellion, uses the “power of death” (Heb 2:14) and sin as his weapon to keep mankind as “slaves to sin” (Rom 6:16-20). These two powers, sin and death, are called within the biblical text the “works of the devil” (1John 3:8). Further, the Devil is considered the father of all those that are a slave to sin. For “He who sins is of the devil” (v8), i.e., You are of your "father the devil” (John 8:44) and the “desires of your father you want to do” (John 8:44). So if one is a “slave to sin” (Rom 6:16-20) then one is captive under the dominion of the ruler of this age, the prince of the power of the air (Eph 2:2).

So this fallen kingdom, i.e., earth, is under the dominion of the Devil (Matt 4:8-9). All of mankind are lost (Rom 3:10-12) and in bondage within the kingdom of the Devil (2Pet 2:19).

Now...enter the conquering King and Savior, Massiach ben Joseph and Messiah ben David (the same person), with a proclamation and offer. He proclaims, "I will tear down this kingdom and put all that oppose me under my foot" (1Cor 15:24-28, Heb 2:8, 1John 3:8, Phil 2:10, 1Pet 3:22)... and then the offer, "Believe and have faith and I will make you part of my coming kingdom".

Important questions:
a. Is it a legitimate offer if those in bondage cannot hear or understand the offer?
b. Is it a legitimate offer if they can hear and understand the offer but are still under the dominion of the Devil, i.e., in chains of bondage (power over them), and cannot act on the offer?

Is it the case that in the multiple accomplishments of Christ on the cross. Particularly the Cosmic Triumph of the power of sin over mankind. That Christ obliterated, put asunder, conquered the nexus, dominion, grip, power of sin and death over mankind? Thus ushering in, or being the culmination of God's stratagem of mercy and grace in which the promise of salvation through faith is possible for all mankind (i.e., it is sufficient). This of course is not a conclusion of Universalism.

Does Christ's work on the cross conquer the 'authority' and 'power' that was a barrier to a bona fide offer to all the world? Thus making it a bona fide offer?

Keep seeking God's truth (Prov 2)

 

[Wesley Briggman]

1. One must not be under some other dominion, power, or influence (power and dominion).

All of mankind is under a spiritual influence.

(Rom 6:16 KJV) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Two choices. No third option, as you surmise.

God's elect will be reborn spiritually.

(1Pe 1:2 KJV) Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

(Eph 2:1 KJV) And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
(Eph 2:2 KJV) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(Eph 2:3 KJV) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
(Eph 2:4 KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
(Eph 2:5 KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

 

[37818]

I was contemplating what would make a bona fide offer to the unbelieving. What do you think?

The offer being a genuine gift.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

I was contemplating what would make a bona fide offer to the unbelieving. What do you think?

Where would anyone come up with the idea of "an offer" that has ever been made "to the unbelieving"?

Is there anyone you know of who is making "an offer" to the unbelieving?

1. If the one that offers says, "come and be free with me in my kingdom".

Who is it that says, "come and be free with me in my kingdom"

2. I must be capable at some level of understanding what I am being offered (enlightenment, illumination).

Is there a rule written down somewhere that states, "I must be capable at some level of understanding what I am being offered"?

And what is being offered based on that "rule"?

If the one that offers says, "come and be free with me in my kingdom".

This idea of an offer being made somewhere, to someone is repeated here, from #1.

I need some clarification as to where that idea of "an offer" came from.

3. I must be able to reject what I desire to reject and accept what I desire to accept (freedom).

Here, as in #2, there is an "I must be capable/able" assertion that I was wondering what the authority is for that kind of rule.

Is there anywhere, in any scenario where someone has to say,
"I must be able to reject what I desire to reject and accept what I desire to accept,"
in order for it to fulfill a definition for them to have "freedom"?

If the above points, 1 & 2, are satisfied, it seems that desiring and choosing to accept or reject is sufficient.

If the above points, 1 & 2, are unable to be supported or substantiated, as being present in reality,
"it seems that desiring and choosing to accept or reject any offer ever being made is insufficient for contemplating.

4. In every case, without fail, what is being offered is granted if the conditions are met.

And nothing can be granted when nothing is offered.

5. In every case, without fail, the consequences of a rejection of the offer is “just”.

For the sake of honesty, a thing may be "just", as the consequences of being associated with that which is rationally in fact true.

 

[Silverhair]

C.O.F.F.E.E.

CHRIST
OFFERS
FORGIVENESS
FOR
EVERYONE
EVERYWHERE

Mat_11:28 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

 

[kyredneck]

C.O.F.F.E.E.

EVERYONE


Mat_11:28 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Everyone? Not. Only to those Christ wills to reveal it to:

Matthew Chapter 11

27​	All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal him.
28​	Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29​	Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30​	For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Besides, most assuredly not 'everyone' labors and is heavy laden with their religion which is the case of those Jews that sincerely desired to please God under the Sinai covenant.

 

[JonC]

I was contemplating what would make a bona fide offer to the unbelieving. What do you think?

1. One must not be under some other dominion, power, or influence (power and dominion).

If the one that offers says, "come and be free with me in my kingdom". But the one being offered is chained in the opposing kingdom and the one who offers does nothing to remove the chains of the one offered. Is this a bona fide offer?

2. I must be capable at some level of understanding what I am being offered (enlightenment, illumination).

If the one that offers says, "come and be free with me in my kingdom". But the one being offered hears nonsense like this, “keinfei$3k 3dknvv8”. Is this a bona fide offer?

3. I must be able to reject what I desire to reject and accept what I desire to accept (freedom).

If the above points, 1 & 2, are satisfied, it seems that desiring and choosing to accept or reject is sufficient.

4. In every case, without fail, what is being offered is granted if the conditions are met.

5. In every case, without fail, the consequences of a rejection of the offer is “just”.


Peace to you brothers

An offer is something presented that can be accepted or rejected. Bona fide means sincere or legitimate.

A bona fide offer is a something that is legitimately presented that can be accepted or rejected.

 

[Silverhair]

Everyone? Not. Only to those Christ wills to reveal it to:

Matthew Chapter 11

27​	All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal him.
28​	Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29​	Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30​	For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Besides, most assuredly not 'everyone' labors and is heavy laden with their religion which is the case of those Jews that sincerely desired to please God under the Sinai covenant.

That is your opinion KY.

Christ said He would draw all to Himself and we are to to preach the gospel to all and God desires that all repent and will judge all for how they respond to the various means that He has provided for man to know Him.

You want to limit the love of God go ahead but I will not do that.

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings Wesley. Thank you for your contribution of wisdom to the OP.

Paleouss said:
1. One must not be under some other dominion, power, or influence (power and dominion).

Then Wesley replied...

All of mankind is under a spiritual influence.

This I agree with. In general and in many specific situations. Let's start though, for the sake of the OP, with the understanding that all mankind (emphasis on all) are slaves to sin and death (Rom 6:16-22). There is none, not one, that seeks after God (Rom 3:11). With this understanding, God MUST make the first move.

Sin and death are the "influence" over mankind, i.e., the tools used to influence and enslave mankind. The agent of this "spiritual influence" is the Devil. For he is the god of this age. And sin and death being his tools, they, sin and death, are the "works of the Devil" (1John 3:8). Christ has come to "destroy the works of the devil" (1Johh 3:8). So it is clear that Christ's work in the IDR (incarnation, death, resurrection) had something to do with the influence of sin and death over mankind).

It is my contention that one accomplishment of the cross is to secure the elect (those chosen before the foundation of the world). In this, I'm sure we both agree. But this is not the topic of the OP. The topic of the OP is in what sense is the gospel offer to all mankind a bona fide offer? That is, for those that are none elected, what are the conditions in which the gospel offer is a legitimate offer (since they have not been elected)?


Even the Calvinist admit (at least the theologians) that God makes a 'gospel offer' to all mankind. Further, the Calvinist admit (at least the theologians) that God's offer is not 'empty", i.e., it is legitimate. The Holy Scriptures says that God decreed to not only be the "justifier" but also "just" (Rom 3:23). Therefore, however God's gospel offer of salvation is given to all mankind... the Bible says it is "just". This "just" implies to me that the offer is legitimate, reasonable, fair and consistent to all in some way (for God says He is being "just").

Using all the above to set the stage for our talk. If you say, "All of mankind is under a spiritual influence" (in which I agree). Then what has Christ done on the cross to circumvent the current influence that results in bondage, slavery, and blindness that penetrates to all mankind that makes the "offer" legitimate?

If Christ's work does nothing to penetrate the current enslaved conditions then the offer does not seem bona fide. For the receivers of the offer can't hear it or respond to it. Thus, it seems reasonable to say that Christ's work on the cross to "destroy the works of the devil" did something that made the "offer" legitimate and just.

God's elect will be reborn spiritually.

I totally agree. But this is not the topic of the OP. The OP is what makes the gospel offer a bona fide offer to all mankind? Unless of course you don't think that God makes an offer to all mankind. In which case...that's your overall answer to the OP.

Two choices. No third option, as you surmise.

I agree that one is a slave of sin or a slave of righteousness.

So the OP question is... we are all slaves to sin and in bondage (chains if you will). For those that are not elect... if they are in chains and restricted from reponding. How is this a legitimate offer if they cannot hear, or understand, and are incapable of accepting due to opposing spiritual influences?


Peace to you brother

 

[Paleouss]

Where would anyone come up with the idea of "an offer" that has ever been made "to the unbelieving"?

Is there anyone you know of who is making "an offer" to the unbelieving?

Greetings Alan. May the grace and hope of God abound in your life.

I intend to mean the gospel offer of salvation to all (not universalism and not contradictory to particular election). Calvinist theologians affirm a "sincere and universal offer of the gospel" and at the same time maintain the doctrine of sovereignty and predestination.

If you don't think that God makes a gospel offer to all mankind. Then I guess this OP isn't for you.


Peace to you brother

 

[Paleouss]

The offer being a genuine gift.

Greetings... ugh.. 378...18? lol.

Ok. The offer is bona fide is the offer is genuine. I take that to mean sincere and actually contains what is being offered.

Peace to you

 

[Paleouss]

A bona fide offer is a something that is legitimately presented that can be accepted or rejected.

Greetings again Jon.

So what would you say that the IDR (incarnation, death, resurrection) did to make mankind capable of being able to "accept" or " reject"? Or do you think mankind already had this capacity in their fallen state?

Peace to you brother

 

[kyredneck]

Christ said He would draw all to Himself

…all you ever do is pit scripture against scripture with no attempt to harmonize.

 

[Paleouss]

C.O.F.F.E.E

Greetings Silverhair.

Two questions.
1. Do you hold to a type of total depravity in which God must make the first move?
2. If you believe in some form of #1. What did Christ's work do to make it possible that the offer of salvation was a bona fide offer?

If you don't hold to a type of #1 then the bona fide offer topic seems to be moot for you.

Peace to you brother

 

[Silverhair]

…all you ever do is pit scripture against scripture with no attempt to harmonize.

Wrong KY. I do not treat the bible like it is a book of one liners as many of one particular view want to do.

The whole bible is the word of God and gives a consistent message, God loves His creation and desires all to be saved.

 

[Silverhair]

1. Do you hold to a type of total depravity in which God must make the first move?

Yes.

2. If you believe in some form of #1. What did Christ's work do to make it possible that the offer of salvation was a bona fide offer?

1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received,
that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and
that He was buried, and
that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies
we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,
much more,
having been reconciled,
we shall be saved by His life.