One subject change after another, running from the fact God chooses individuals for salvation based on crediting their faith as righteousness.
This is the gospel truth their false doctrine denies.
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Universal Atonement With Limited Atonement
- Thread starter Paleouss
- Start date
This is the gospel truth their false doctrine denies.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
How are we saved? God chooses an individual for salvation by spiritually setting that person apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, based on crediting the person's faith as righteousness. In Christ they undergo the washing of regeneration, they are made alive together with Christ, also called the circumcision of Christ where whatever God held against the individual is removed, and then the individual is indwelt with the Holy Spirit, our Helper who carries out the renewing of our mind.
Did we commit to Christ first, or did Christ die as a ransom for all first? Christ demonstrated His love for us while we were yet sinners. Were we saved then given faith, or did God credit our faith as righteousness, then save us? God credited our faith before He saved us.
Did we commit to Christ first, or did Christ die as a ransom for all first? Christ demonstrated His love for us while we were yet sinners. Were we saved then given faith, or did God credit our faith as righteousness, then save us? God credited our faith before He saved us.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Folks those who have been Chosen to Salvation have been also Chosen to believe the Gospel by which they are called to Eternal Glory 2 Thess 2:13-14
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This is all about the elect,
The non elect and their plight were explained in the previous verses in contrast 2 Thess 2:10-12
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
These were not chosen to salvation nor to believe the Truth, but to believe lies !
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This is all about the elect,
The non elect and their plight were explained in the previous verses in contrast 2 Thess 2:10-12
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
These were not chosen to salvation nor to believe the Truth, but to believe lies !
Greetings to you Aaron and grace and hope to you and yours. Thank you for your insights and wisdom on this matter.
Now, I'm not discounting at this point that it is not a "representation" or "shadow" of what Christ did for the elect. Just pointing out and being strict with biblical accuracy that The Day of Atonement (Lev 16:21-22, Heb 9:7), also known as Yom Kippur gives no mention of "the elect" and no mention of only being for 'some Jews'.
The biblical text explicitly says... "confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins"... (upon the sacrificial goat). It was for the "peoples sins committed in ignorance" (Heb 9:7).
It would seem that if one was going to bring an argument that this sacrifice was only of the "elect" then one would focus on the phrase "children of Israel" in Lev 16. The only problem is that if one studies Jewish tradition one clearly understands that the Day of Atonement was for 'every Jew' not just some.
Within the biblical text, the sacrifice that was given once a year was for 'people', their sins and transgressions of ignorance (not a nation but the people within the nation). And here is the rub, Paul tells us that not all the circumcised Jews were children of the promise (i.e., elect). Maybe even most were not Jews of the promise but only Jews of the seed.
In other words, the Priests are giving sacrifices for all Jews, yes all symbolically are circumcised, but not all of them were children of the promise.
Thoughts?
Peace to you brother
In regard to your statement above. I think that you are accurate except for the added part at the end. There is no explicit nor implicit verse that tells us that the High Priest sacrifice (the Jewish sacrifice) made once a year called the Day of Atonement or Yom Kippur is for "the elect".
Now, I'm not discounting at this point that it is not a "representation" or "shadow" of what Christ did for the elect. Just pointing out and being strict with biblical accuracy that The Day of Atonement (Lev 16:21-22, Heb 9:7), also known as Yom Kippur gives no mention of "the elect" and no mention of only being for 'some Jews'.
The biblical text explicitly says... "confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins"... (upon the sacrificial goat). It was for the "peoples sins committed in ignorance" (Heb 9:7).
It would seem that if one was going to bring an argument that this sacrifice was only of the "elect" then one would focus on the phrase "children of Israel" in Lev 16. The only problem is that if one studies Jewish tradition one clearly understands that the Day of Atonement was for 'every Jew' not just some.
We agree that the sacrifice did not include Egypt or anyone outside of the Jewish people.
We agree that the individual sacrifices were shadows of Christ dying for the individual (i.e., elect). Where we would seem to disagree, or I'm just not clear, is your statement that the Day of Atonement was Christ dying for "the nation".
Within the biblical text, the sacrifice that was given once a year was for 'people', their sins and transgressions of ignorance (not a nation but the people within the nation). And here is the rub, Paul tells us that not all the circumcised Jews were children of the promise (i.e., elect). Maybe even most were not Jews of the promise but only Jews of the seed.
In other words, the Priests are giving sacrifices for all Jews, yes all symbolically are circumcised, but not all of them were children of the promise.
Thoughts?
Peace to you brother
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
@JesusFan I have to conclude that you are using Eph 1:4 as your justification for your stated view.
No one is predestined to election.
God’s sovereign choice from eternity was
1] to save those that would believe in Christ Jesus
2] that His people be holy and blameless before Him. Eph_1:13-14
{Rom_8:14-16, 2Co_1:21-22, Eph_4:30}
The Bible does not teach that we are chosen “to be” in Him but instead that those who have repented and believed are now “in him” {Christ} and are predestined to an inheritance, adoption, and to be holy and without blame before God. The choosing was for the blessings to be found in Christ, not those who would be in Christ. It is God choosing what those of us who are in Him {Christ} will receive. Eph_1:5-14 2Ti_1:9 In Ephesians 1, the only being in the passage that existed before the foundations of the world is Christ, the elect one.
Once the person is born again (Joh_3:3-7) by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit (Tit_3:4-7) they receive every spiritual blessing immediately, in Christ, who is seated in the heavenly realm at the right hand of God. Furthermore, the Christian has now received the promise of eternal life and all the promises of inheritance that are associated with it, the moment that they believe and trust in Christ for salvation.
How are we saved? God chooses an individual for salvation by spiritually setting that person apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, based on crediting the person's faith as righteousness. In Christ they undergo the washing of regeneration, they are made alive together with Christ, also called the circumcision of Christ where whatever God held against the individual is removed, and then the individual is indwelt with the Holy Spirit, our Helper who carries out the renewing of our mind.
Utter nonsense, first a change of subject to a "model of Redemption" then the absurd claim physical circumcision counts for anything under the New Covenant. I kid you not, the concept that Christ's death provides the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity, 1 John 2:2 is something false teachers deny with nonsense.
Once again the plain truth is denied. Believers are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. Believers, rich in faith are chosen. Heirs to the kingdom promised to those that love God are chosen. Pay no attention to the unbiblical claims from the dark ages. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Silverhair
Thats false, Gods election purpose is not based upon foreseen good or evil in the acts of men Rom 9:11
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )
Believing in Christ is a work of righteousness.
God doesnt consider anything they do after they were born, thats plainly stated !
Thats false, Gods election purpose is not based upon foreseen good or evil in the acts of men Rom 9:11
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )
Believing in Christ is a work of righteousness.
God doesnt consider anything they do after they were born, thats plainly stated !
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
How are we saved? God chooses an individual for salvation by spiritually setting that person apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, based on crediting the person's faith as righteousness. In Christ they undergo the washing of regeneration, they are made alive together with Christ, also called the circumcision of Christ where whatever God held against the individual is removed, and then the individual is indwelt with the Holy Spirit, our Helper who carries out the renewing of our mind.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
BF you are so focused on your philosophy that you continue to miss what is right in front of you.
That the purpose of God according to election which fulfills God's word to Abraham might stand. {Gen_12:2-3 ff}
Gods' choice was while they were in the womb before they were born not before they were conceived and not before the foundation of the world and not for salvation but for a birthright and you can see Gen_25:31-34; Gen_25:27-36
Isaiah 45:4 KJV
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name:
The Day of Atonement has meaning only in context of the whole law. Under that economy, every circumcised Jew, faithful or not, was the elect of God, and the high priest stood before God confessing his sin.
Yes and no. There was provision for wilfull sin in the law. But not where one knowingly and wilfully sinned against the Temple or the other holy things, either the rites or artifacts. Those things touched on the very Person and Spirit of Christ.
When Paul spoke to the Hebrews of 'falling away', and 'no more sacrifice for sin', he wasn't speaking of the common lapses into things like drunkenness or adultery or swearing, etc. One is not in a hopeless state, even if he, knowing better, gives in to those sins. Neither are they hopeless who in fear give in to the temptation to momentarily deny Christ, as did Peter, or as did the martyr, Thomas Cranmer. They both found repentance.
But there was no provision for brazen sacrilege. Certainly none for blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.
Paul was speaking of forsaking the Gospel to return to the shadows of the law. Now that the reality had come, a return to the mere pattern would be tantamount to approving the Jewish accusation and sentence of death on Christ, and repeating it...an apostasy from which there is no promised return.
The law itself said the high priest confessed the iniquities, transgressions, and sins, of the people, encompassing wilful, knowing, and habitual sins. Paul summarized the law with the generalization of 'shorcomings.'
Israel is there on the breastplate. And Israel is the elect of God.
Every circumcised Jew. The elect.
Then we agree the sacrifice was for God's elect.
The elect nation. The holy nation. The royal priesthood.
In the individual sacrifices, one can see Christ dying for him, and him alone. On the day of atonement, one sees Christ dying for all the redeemed of the earth. Christ made only one sacrifice.
THE people...
You seem to be confusing a modern, geo-political understanding of the word nation for the biblical understanding of family or covenant. The house of Israel (not to be confused with the modern artificial state in the Middle East) was a family that stood in a covenant relationship with God. The sign of that covenant was circumcision.
While the temple stood, and the way into the Holiest not yet made manifest, according to the Pattern, all outwardly circumcised were elect. We're talking about the pattern...about the blueprints...not about the actual structure.
Now we understand the reality. The children of Abraham are those who are children by faith, and that circumcision is of the heart. Now we understand that all those who are of faith are the elect, and are those for whom atonement was made. Those for whom atonement was not made, will never come to faith. They are not of the house of Israel.
You are wanting to make a distinction in the law where there is none. The law itself was the symbol, the pattern, the copy of the original. Under the law, circumcision is no mere symbol. It's the deal. The distinciton between the faithful Israelite vs the unfaithful Israelite, does not exist under the pattern. The faithful are those who know Him as Jehovah, the Lord. The unfaithful are those who only know Him as the Most High God, or El Elyon. They are not circumcised. They are not obligated to keep the 613 commandments given in the Torah.
What we see now is the true priesthood, the true offering, and the true tabernacle, and we see the true elect from every nation. The pattern is teaching us that the sacrifice was made for the true elect, those who are circumcised in heart.
The individual sacrifices are not an application of the sacrifices made on the Day of Atonement. The Day of Atonement and the individual sacrifices are the One sacrifice from different vantage points.