God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity?
Try to keep an open mind. Try to be good Bereans, if you can. Speak hypothetically, if you need to.
Why does Satan, or the god of this age need to blind people who, according to reformed theology, already lack the capacity or desire to understand? Everybody starts out blind, right? So Satan blinds the blind in the hopes that he might what? I think allowing Satan to do this is God judicially hardening them Just sometimes that step is assumed.
What truth are these unbelievers suppressing?
Romans 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,
These are unbelievers who rejected the truth, right?
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God Romans 3:23 would seem to be a justification statement. Romans 3:11-13 included (more later). What do you think about the statement that 'they all turned aside'? What did they turn aside from that made them that way, implying that they were not always like that? Does one need to pass perfect righteous standards for a faith to be accepted? I offer the new believer as evidence. He needs to have the fear of God like a child in his formattable years to motivate him to obey God. It is only later in his faith, if his faith has been perfected, or matured, that he casts away all fear. In other words, he casts away all fear when he's all grown up spiritually and sees the love behind the commandments. He doesn't need to be motivated by fear of chastisement like a child. That doesn't sound like a mature sinless motivated faith to me. Why does one need to have a five star faith for it to be acceptable, when the beginning of that same faith in sanctification is anything but. "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." It doesn't sound like the I love you with all my heart kind of faith, does it? The faith of a mustard seed. God drawing people, or to drag, pull, or persuade, doesn't sound like it's necessarily motivated by Holy Ghost goose bumps, does it?
Paul says something interesting in Romans 7:18
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
Is the desire enough for the start of faith? It's the sick who need a doctor, right? Sometimes I wonder if the faith that Jesus Authors and Finishes is the one that starts when we are indwelt as a result of believing, from the Spirit. In other words, our pre-salvation faith is tainted with sin by holy standards, but also selfishly genuine and seeking the Doctor to be cured. Bottoming out in sin, if you will. Any "being perfected", or practically sanctified would be a result of the indwelling, which is the result of faith.
Isaiah 6:8-10 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me." And He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.' "Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed."
What would have happened if God didn't judicially harden them so that they could still hear and see? Would they be able to believe? That seems to be what Isaiah is saying in 6:8-10. Rendered so that they could not see and hear, lest they believe, right? Are dead made more dead, etc., or is their being able to believe if not hardened a hypothetical?
Here's some more...
Romans 3:10-12 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."
Paul is quoting Psalms, which sheds a little more light on the context. "They have all turned aside" begs the question, from what? Were they able to see before "they all turned aside"? The fact that God looks down upon the children of that time (He taught them all) to see if there were any who understand and who seek God would appear at a glance to answer that question. Psalm 53: says the same thing, but adds "They have together become corrupt". Interesting, that they "became corrupt". One could argue that sin needs to take it's course, and their comes a point in time, while being in a bad state, God, as judgment, puts the final nail in the coffin, lest they see, hear, and believe.
Psalm 14:2-4 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call on the Lord?
Psalm 53:2-4 God looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. Every one of them has turned aside; They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon God?
Because... as John 6:65 is often quoted as a proof text. From that same context...
John 6:35, 45, 65 Everyone has been taught by God. All the children of Israel (Isaiah (54:13). Almost sounds universally, especially when we consider John 12:32, And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
Even the Hardening on Israel was only partial. They can be grafted back in by God (Romans 11:20-25), if the do not continue in unbelief. Belief seems to dictate the grafting in, as unbelief seems to dictate the branches broken off. Total depravity isn't total according to this context as I see it. Am I wrong?
The Gentiles...
Romans 2:14-15 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
Wait, what? The Law written on their hearts, accusing, excusing them? Hmm. Time to revisit total depravity, me thinks.
Try to keep an open mind. Try to be good Bereans, if you can. Speak hypothetically, if you need to.
Why does Satan, or the god of this age need to blind people who, according to reformed theology, already lack the capacity or desire to understand? Everybody starts out blind, right? So Satan blinds the blind in the hopes that he might what? I think allowing Satan to do this is God judicially hardening them Just sometimes that step is assumed.
What truth are these unbelievers suppressing?
Romans 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,
These are unbelievers who rejected the truth, right?
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God Romans 3:23 would seem to be a justification statement. Romans 3:11-13 included (more later). What do you think about the statement that 'they all turned aside'? What did they turn aside from that made them that way, implying that they were not always like that? Does one need to pass perfect righteous standards for a faith to be accepted? I offer the new believer as evidence. He needs to have the fear of God like a child in his formattable years to motivate him to obey God. It is only later in his faith, if his faith has been perfected, or matured, that he casts away all fear. In other words, he casts away all fear when he's all grown up spiritually and sees the love behind the commandments. He doesn't need to be motivated by fear of chastisement like a child. That doesn't sound like a mature sinless motivated faith to me. Why does one need to have a five star faith for it to be acceptable, when the beginning of that same faith in sanctification is anything but. "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." It doesn't sound like the I love you with all my heart kind of faith, does it? The faith of a mustard seed. God drawing people, or to drag, pull, or persuade, doesn't sound like it's necessarily motivated by Holy Ghost goose bumps, does it?
Paul says something interesting in Romans 7:18
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
Is the desire enough for the start of faith? It's the sick who need a doctor, right? Sometimes I wonder if the faith that Jesus Authors and Finishes is the one that starts when we are indwelt as a result of believing, from the Spirit. In other words, our pre-salvation faith is tainted with sin by holy standards, but also selfishly genuine and seeking the Doctor to be cured. Bottoming out in sin, if you will. Any "being perfected", or practically sanctified would be a result of the indwelling, which is the result of faith.
Isaiah 6:8-10 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me." And He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.' "Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed."
What would have happened if God didn't judicially harden them so that they could still hear and see? Would they be able to believe? That seems to be what Isaiah is saying in 6:8-10. Rendered so that they could not see and hear, lest they believe, right? Are dead made more dead, etc., or is their being able to believe if not hardened a hypothetical?
Here's some more...
Romans 3:10-12 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."
Paul is quoting Psalms, which sheds a little more light on the context. "They have all turned aside" begs the question, from what? Were they able to see before "they all turned aside"? The fact that God looks down upon the children of that time (He taught them all) to see if there were any who understand and who seek God would appear at a glance to answer that question. Psalm 53: says the same thing, but adds "They have together become corrupt". Interesting, that they "became corrupt". One could argue that sin needs to take it's course, and their comes a point in time, while being in a bad state, God, as judgment, puts the final nail in the coffin, lest they see, hear, and believe.
Psalm 14:2-4 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call on the Lord?
Psalm 53:2-4 God looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. Every one of them has turned aside; They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon God?
Because... as John 6:65 is often quoted as a proof text. From that same context...
John 6:35, 45, 65 Everyone has been taught by God. All the children of Israel (Isaiah (54:13). Almost sounds universally, especially when we consider John 12:32, And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
Even the Hardening on Israel was only partial. They can be grafted back in by God (Romans 11:20-25), if the do not continue in unbelief. Belief seems to dictate the grafting in, as unbelief seems to dictate the branches broken off. Total depravity isn't total according to this context as I see it. Am I wrong?
The Gentiles...
Romans 2:14-15 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
Wait, what? The Law written on their hearts, accusing, excusing them? Hmm. Time to revisit total depravity, me thinks.
