Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
God does everything for His Glory
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God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity?
- Thread starter Dave...
- Start date
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So as I said BF, since God desires all to be saved then why are not all saved.
Your the one that keeps saying that what He desires has to come to fruition.
What do you think
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
means if not that He wants all men to be saved?
But we know that not all men are saved so that punches a hole in your theory BF.
It would seem that you are just reading into a verse what you want to find.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
How does Him creating sin and evil bring Him glory BF?
You give simplistic answers rather than thinking things through. Your religion is built on one liners with no depth.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Those God desires to be saved, guess what ? Job 23:13-14
13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
God does everything for His Glory. You need to ask God in the Day of Judgment
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Still not dealing with the problem of your thinking BF?
Look at the context of the verses in Job. How does it relate to what we are told in 1Ti 2:3-4?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
A one liner theology has no depth BF.
You avoid the hard questions as they show how shallow your religion is.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Those God desires to be saved, guess what ? Job 23:13-14
13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
God does everything for His Glory.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Pro 1:22 "How long, O naive ones, will you love being simple-minded? And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing And fools hate knowledge?
Once again, not a single Calvinist has the integrity to even address 1 Corinthians 3:1. Paul spoke to new immature Christians as he spoke to unregenerates using spiritual milk. They deny this truth as if they cannot read. It would be laughable if it weren't so sad.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
What if what they believe is unbelief?
John 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Van when you look at 1Co 1:2 "To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling,..." you see that Paul was writing to the church at Corinth, to believers. He even called them "infants in Christ".
I think you are just confusing them by the term "spiritual milk".
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Dave that is the problem, unbelief. They knew the OT scriptures, they had seen and heard of the miracles and yet they continued to deny the truth.
God let them strengthen themselves in their unbelief just as He had done with Pharaoh.
Joh 12:28 "Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."
Joh 12:29 So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "An angel has spoken to Him."
None are so blind as those that will not see or deaf as those that will not hear.
In the past I've always held to the idea that there is a passivity in Gods eternal decree. Not a bare permission, but a positive allowing. That 'predestined' speaks specifically of what He actually positively causes. So I always understood that the term 'ordained' encompasses God's complete sovereignty. And it is under the title of 'ordained', that God providentially governs everything, both positively causing (predestined), and positively allowing (not bare permission).
One of the main reasons for this is, I maintain, is that God cannot be the Author of sin or evil. Compatibilism gives some insight into the passivity in His eternal decree, all the while He still remains sovereign over everything. The rubber meets the road when dealing with the desires in the hearts of Josephs brothers that spawned the sin of selling him into slavery. That part, God is not responsible for. Yet He is still completely sovereign over it. So, in short, God is constrained by His attributes. Look at the lengths that He had to go to to satisfy His justice on our behalf while not violating who He is, His holiness, His righteousness, etc.. Jesus did it. It was the only way.
This is why Satan is allowed to harden, then God doesn't need to. This is why children are born innocent in their ignorance, and become accountable as they begin to understand. This is why Adam and Eve were created good, but He knew they would fall. The same with Lucifer, created good, but also created knowing that he would fall. God still determines, but can also determine while being passive. I believe that mainstream reformed thought, even Calvin Himself, where likeminded, though people read meanings into the way that they used their theological terms that they never intended. Just like today, as Spurgeon said, the discussions are more about the terms than anything else. That's the best sense that I could ever make of it. How does it stack up if there is no total depravity? There is still a natural and even a judicial depravity to consider. But, to tell you the truth, I haven't thought that far ahead.
Dave
Remember, a lot of these same people also believe that a person is born again before they come to faith, which I disagree with. Whether or not we come to faith from God or not, it's not from being born again. Being born again is always the result of faith. They see it as an all or nothing, since they don't distinguish the Holy Spirit's indwelling in the NT, and the Holy Spirit being upon a believer in the OT. Nor do they consider the power in God's Word, God's drawing people, etc.. For them, it's born again or the flesh. So, naturally, the colored glasses that they read into that passage in Romans with will dictate how they understand it.
There's a bigger picture, that's what I'm trying to find. It's got to fit with all Scripture. I still haven't dismissed the idea that man needs God to come to faith. I just disagree that man must be born again to come to faith. We have the Holy Spirit coming upon a person in the OT. That may parallel the pre faith drawing necessary to bring a person to faith in the NT. We'll see how things play out. Even Jesus , being the Word said this, which I find very revealing. This is still OT. The NT officially began to be declared at Pentecost, the light....
John 12:24-36 The people answered Him, "We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man?" Then Jesus said to them, "A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.
Remember Van, the New Testament doesn't begin until the cross (Hebrews 9:16). WE call Matthew, Mark, Luke and John the New Testament/Covenant, but in reality, all of them are still Old Testament/Covenant up until each records Jesus' death on the cross. Failure to recognize this will ultimately cause all kinds of error.
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
when you witness Jesus raise a man from the dead. and still do not believe. is there anything that will convince you?
Contrast Romans 11:4-5, the remnant, with verse 14. these are not the same people.