John 1:12-13 revisited.

[Dave G]

Dave, I was you.

I might know your theology better than you do. I'm simply asking you to let Scripture define itself. When you start with the idea that there are only two options, born again or the flesh, that's going to wreak havoc on your interpretation of Scripture.

Believe it or not, not all past reformed theologians believed that OT believers were born again. Martin Luther being one of them. Look it up. It's only recently that it has become the norm. I think todays reformed theology got lazy and big headed from arguing with Arminians. It made them dull in their understanding. Test yourself, honestly, and see what happens.

...and I was you once.

However, I'm not "Reformed", nor did I ever read anything outside of God's word to get where I am in my current understanding...
And I always let the Lord speak, and for Scripture to define itself.

Unfortunately, the "idea" that there are only two "options",

1) a person who is "in Christ" and born again / indwelt with the Spirit of God, or
2) a person who isn't and is "in the flesh",

... are the two options that Scriptures itself gives, in no uncertain terms:

" For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." ( Romans 8:5-9 )

I have no trouble understanding this truth from what I read in the above.
"In the flesh" means "not born again" and devoid of the Spirit of God, while "in the Spirit" here means ( at least to me ) "born again" and indwelt with the Spirit of God.

But since it appears that you don't see this, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then, and leave it at that.
As for the rest of this thread, my posts appear not to have had the affect that I had hoped for, so I'll take my leave of it and wish you well.


May God bless you.

 

[Dave...]

...and I was you once.

However, I'm not "Reformed", nor did I ever read anything outside of God's word to get where I am in my current understanding...
And I always let the Lord speak, and for Scripture to define itself.

Unfortunately, the "idea" that there are only two "options",

Were these born again?

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

I've shown you other options. The Holy Spirit being upon a believers, but not in him. The presence of God, Jesus, God incarnate in the NT. God in the OT Temple. God in His Word.

1) a person who is "in Christ" and born again / indwelt with the Spirit of God, or
2) a person who isn't and is "in the flesh",

The problem is that nobody in the OT was indwelt. Thus, nobody was born again. Yet they believed. How do you reconcile that?

... are the two options that Scriptures itself gives, in no uncertain terms:

" For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." ( Romans 8:5-9 )

Yes, this is the difference between those who are in Christ and those who are not. How is a person placed into Christ? What does Scripture say? Was this possible in the OT?

I have no trouble understanding this truth from what I read in the above.
"In the flesh" means "not born again" and devoid of the Spirit of God, while "in the Spirit" here means ( at least to me ) "born again" and indwelt with the Spirit of God.

Most reformed people also agree with your statement. Now, what of the OT believers? They believed, but were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit. How do you reconcile your belief with Scripture?

 

[Brightfame52]

@Dave G

"In the flesh" means "not born again" and devoid of the Spirit of God, while "in the Spirit" here means ( at least to me ) "born again" and indwelt with the Spirit of God.

Agreed, and as long as we are in the flesh, unregenerate, we cannot but mind the things of the flesh Rom 8:5

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

This applies to even our most sincere religious endeavours, its only the flesh being pleased.

 

[kyredneck]

The problem is that nobody in the OT was indwelt. Thus, nobody was born again.

The problem here is that you've placed little or no thought into this, most likely due to your eagerness to disprove 'Reformed' views, which is typical of internet board 'Calvinist-slayers'.

It's not 'born again', it's 'born from above'.

As in:

But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4:26

As in:

3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.
5 Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.
6 Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Selah
7 They that sing as well as they that dance shall say, All my fountains are in thee. Ps 87

There's nothing 'new' about Christ's revelation given in Jn 3:8. 'Born from above' is a direct reference to the children of the heavenly Zion. Every saint that ever was, OT or NT, are children of 'HER', and this includes God's children among the nations, of which there were more of than Israelites under the old covenant.

And, before anyone can enter into or even see the long awaited kingdom of God here on earth, they must first be a child of the heavenly Jerusalem. One must first be 'born from above' before one can enter into 'the regeneration'.

The children of the heavenly Zion have always been the true Jews, the real Israel, thus we’re told, “they are not all Israel, that are of Israel, neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children”.

 

[kyredneck]

nobody in the OT was indwelt

...and you say it with such assuredness.

Isaiah Chapter 57

15​	For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite.

This alone...:

Psalms Chapter 119

162​	I rejoice at thy word, As one that findeth great spoil.

...should cause you to question how 'flesh', void of the Spirit, could rejoice in the fraction of the canon that we have now.

 

[kyredneck]

nobody in the OT was indwelt

Were OT Saints Indwelt?​

 

[Brightfame52]

The problem here is that you've placed little or no thought into this, most likely due to your eagerness to disprove 'Reformed' views, which is typical of internet board 'Calvinist-slayers'.

It's not 'born again', it's 'born from above'.

As in:

But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4:26

As in:

3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.
5 Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.
6 Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Selah
7 They that sing as well as they that dance shall say, All my fountains are in thee. Ps 87

There's nothing 'new' about Christ's revelation given in Jn 3:8. 'Born from above' is a direct reference to the children of the heavenly Zion. Every saint that ever was, OT or NT, are children of 'HER', and this includes God's children among the nations, of which there were more of than Israelites under the old covenant.

And, before anyone can enter into or even see the long awaited kingdom of God here on earth, they must first be a child of the heavenly Jerusalem. One must first be 'born from above' before one can enter into 'the regeneration'.

The children of the heavenly Zion have always been the true Jews, the real Israel, thus we’re told, “they are not all Israel, that are of Israel, neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children”.

Isaac was born after the Spirit as is the New Covenant Believer Gal 4 28-29

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

 

[kyredneck]

Isaac was born after the Spirit as is the New Covenant Believer Gal 4 28-29

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Precisely. He was born from Jerusalem above just as every saint that ever was.

Galatians Chapter 4

26​	But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27​	For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28​	Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29​	But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now.

 

[Brightfame52]

Precisely. He was born from Jerusalem above just as every saint that ever was.

Galatians Chapter 4

26​	But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27​	For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28​	Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29​	But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now.

Right all the Spiritual seed of Abraham/Christ will be born from above Jn 3:3

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,ἄνωθεν[from above] he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

[Dave...]

It's not 'born again', it's 'born from above'.

Hey KY, back again I see.

Nicodemus' reply would seem to be a rather odd one in John 3 if the idea of being born again was not, at the very least, implied in the definition. Given the fact that it is translated born again, and not born of God, I'll stick with what it says. Tomayto - tomahto.

But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4:26

As in:

3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.
5 Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.
6 Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Selah
7 They that sing as well as they that dance shall say, All my fountains are in thee. Ps 87
There's nothing 'new' about Christ's revelation given in Jn 3:8. 'Born from above' is a direct reference to the children of the heavenly Zion. Every saint that ever was, OT or NT, are children of 'HER', and this includes God's children among the nations, of which there were more of than Israelites under the old covenant.

And, before anyone can enter into or even see the long awaited kingdom of God here on earth, they must first be a child of the heavenly Jerusalem. One must first be 'born from above' before one can enter into 'the regeneration'.

The children of the heavenly Zion have always been the true Jews, the real Israel, thus we’re told, “they are not all Israel, that are of Israel, neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children”.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

When was that promise fulfilled?

Look at the context.

Gal. 4:21-31 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband." Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

It's a type, a picture. Hagar and Isaac were types of a NT reality. It doesn't say that Isaac was born again, if that's what you're implying. But he did, in type, represent those who would be born again in the NT.

When was the Promise realized? Include Psalm 87:3-7 in this...

Go back to the end of chapter three.

Galatians 3:26-29 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

It was realized at Pentecost.

Acts 1:1-5 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

By the time Galatians was written, after Pentecost, it was already a reality.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[Dave...]

@kyredneck
@Brightfame52
@Dave G

In Galatians 4, with reference to Isaac, "Born of the Spirit" (as opposed to the flesh), in the context used by Paul, is speaking of the miracle of the physical birth of Isaac, since it was well past Sarah's child bearing years. Thus He was born of the Spirit, physically, but miraculously. This foreshadowed the spiritual new birth of believers in the New Testament, which is a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit (spiritually) and independent from human effort.

In short, Isaac was a physical type of a future spiritual reality. There are more parts to this type, but they don't apply to the discussion at hand.

 

[kyredneck]

Nicodemus' reply...

...was brutish and unenlightened, and Christ corrected his carnal response, which is how the text should be rendered and how many of the newer versions and ALL of the literal translations renders it - born from above/born of the Spirit.

'Born again' gives free-willers like yourself wiggle room to lay claim to taking part in something you have zilch to do with - your heavenly birth. You've no more say so in your spiritual birth than you did your physical birth.

 

[Dave G]

@Dave...

I'd like to make one more set of replies, if I may, rather than leave you hanging without answering some questions that you've asked.
However, I also believe that a careful reading of the Scriptures on the subject of whether or not Old Testament saints were born again ( and actually had the Spirit of God in them ), would yield results similar to what I have found below.

Were these born again?

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Yes they were.
In addition, so were these:

" But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name [was] Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god, and in whom [is] the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, [saying],
9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods [is] in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof. " ( Daniel 4:8-9 ). <----- The Spirit is said to be in Daniel here, not "on" him.

" And the Lord said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom [is] the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;
19 and set him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation; and give him a charge in their sight. " ( Numbers 27:18-19 ) <--- Again, "in", not "on".

" Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, [and] his people, [saying], Where [is] he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where [is] he that put his holy Spirit within him?" ( Isaiah 63:11 ) <---- Moses had the Spirit of God in him, because the Lord put it there.

I'm sure there could be even more references... but suffice to say, I've come up with at least a few Scriptures that tell me that the Spirit was both in and on certain people in the Old Testament, as well as them being born again, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Dave G]

Most reformed people also agree with your statement. Now, what of the OT believers? They believed, but were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit. How do you reconcile your belief with Scripture?

Look carefully, again, at John 3.
Jesus is speaking with Nicodemus, who is wondering about something the Lord told him:

" There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 the same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?" ( John 3:1-12 ).

Do you see where He mentions being born again, and Nicodemus asking Him how it could be so?
Do you see where the Lord tells him the difference between someone who is "born of the flesh", and someone who is "born of the Spirit"?...
The difference between earthly things, and heavenly things?
And then asking him how, being a master of Israel, Nicodemus did not know this?

My friend, the new birth did indeed exist among God's people in the Old Testament, just as it does the New.
Jesus Himself bore witness to two types of people...
Those born "of the flesh", and those born "of the Spirit".
He is speaking of people like Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joshua, Daniel and so forth.

In addition,
The indwelling of the Spirit did indeed exist ( at least in some, as evidenced by Daniel, Moses and Joshua ), and now does in all of His people.


Again, may God bless you, and may He show you much through your studies.

 

[Dave...]

...was brutish and unenlightened, and Christ corrected his carnal response, which is how the text should be rendered and how many of the newer versions and ALL of the literal translations renders it - born from above/born of the Spirit.

'Born again' gives free-willers like yourself wiggle room to lay claim to taking part in something you have zilch to do with - your heavenly birth. You've no more say so in your spiritual birth than you did your physical birth.

Free willers? Is that what they call Bereans these days? God did it all, it's all from the Spirit. From the moment we receive the Holy Spirit and begun in the Spirit, it's all from the Spirit. But we receive the Holy Spirit as a result of faith. That's what Paul said.


Galatians 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

 

[Dave...]

@Dave...

I'd like to make one more set of replies, if I may, rather than leave you hanging without answering some questions that you've asked.
However, I also believe that a careful reading of the Scriptures on the subject of whether or not Old Testament saints were born again ( and actually had the Spirit of God in them ), would yield results similar to what I have found below.


Yes they were.
In addition, so were these:

" But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name [was] Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god, and in whom [is] the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, [saying],
9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods [is] in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof. " ( Daniel 4:8-9 ). <----- The Spirit is said to be in Daniel here, not "on" him.

" And the Lord said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom [is] the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;
19 and set him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation; and give him a charge in their sight. " ( Numbers 27:18-19 ) <--- Again, "in", not "on".

" Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, [and] his people, [saying], Where [is] he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where [is] he that put his holy Spirit within him?" ( Isaiah 63:11 ) <---- Moses had the Spirit of God in him, because the Lord put it there.

I'm sure there could be even more references... but suffice to say, I've come up with at least a few Scriptures that tell me that the Spirit was both in and on certain people in the Old Testament, as well as them being born again, wouldn't you agree?

Thanks for the reply Dave

Moses prayer asking that God's people would all be prophets, and that He would put His Spirit upon all them, was answered first in promise, in Joel 2:28-29, and then realized in Acts 2:16-21. Something to keep in mind. Not everyone had the Spirit of God upon them in the OT.

Starting with Daniel 4:8-9, that was a secular description by Nebuchadnezzar seeing the evidence of God moving, but did not have an understanding of what was happening. It was recorded in Scripture, but the Holy Spirit did not inspire the statement, or the description given by the man, as is evidence by the whole response "the holy gods". I wouldn't use this as a source to create or validate any doctrines. In short, it doesn't mean that Daniel was indwelt. It just means that God was moving and Nebuchadnezzar recognized it and described it the best that he could.

Numbers 27:18-19. While that passage does say "in him", it's worded differently than the Holy Spirit indwelling is in the NT. This can be interpreted as Joshua having a proper spirit suitable for leadership. Given the fact that everyone in the OT given a specific task by God had the Holy Spirit upon them, I think it would be best to not use this as a proof text for indwelling.

Isaiah 63:11 The word "within" in your interstation means upon. I'm not sure what translation that you're using, but look it up in your concordance and you'll see.

 

[Dave...]

Look carefully, again, at John 3.
Jesus is speaking with Nicodemus, who is wondering about something the Lord told him:

" There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 the same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?" ( John 3:1-12 ).

Do you see where He mentions being born again, and Nicodemus asking Him how it could be so?
Do you see where the Lord tells him the difference between someone who is "born of the flesh", and someone who is "born of the Spirit"?...
The difference between earthly things, and heavenly things?
And then asking him how, being a master of Israel, Nicodemus did not know this?

My friend, the new birth did indeed exist among God's people in the Old Testament, just as it does the New.
Jesus Himself bore witness to two types of people...
Those born "of the flesh", and those born "of the Spirit".
He is speaking of people like Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joshua, Daniel and so forth.

In addition,
The indwelling of the Spirit did indeed exist ( at least in some, as evidenced by Daniel, Moses and Joshua ), and now does in all of His people.


Again, may God bless you, and may He show you much through your studies.

I have a question for you Dave. First, humor me and read this passage in Romans 8. I know you read it before, but read it again like it's the first time reading it. It's very relevant for context, but it's especially relevant due to the fact that the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Christ.

Romans 8:8-11 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Now for the sixty thousand dollar question.

Was the Spirit of Christ with Nicodemus, or in Nicodemus?

Please consider...

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

I believe that this is one of the reasons why Christ had to first be glorified. Remember...

John 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

 

[Brightfame52]

Free willers? Is that what they call Bereans these days? God did it all, it's all from the Spirit. From the moment we receive the Holy Spirit and begun in the Spirit, it's all from the Spirit. But we receive the Holy Spirit as a result of faith. That's what Paul said.


Galatians 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 3:2-3 isnt about regeneration, they had been already regenerated when they were hearing with Faith, then the fell upon them much like with Cornelius and his crew when they were hearing Peters preaching, the Spirit fell upon them Acts 10:34-45

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all

37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Cornelius and his group were already regenerated because they feared God, which none do by nature.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Thats receiving the Spirit by the hearing of Faith

 

[Dave G]

Now for the sixty thousand dollar question.

Was the Spirit of Christ with Nicodemus, or in Nicodemus?

Perhaps a better question should be...

" Is there some reason you're pursuing the subject of whether or not the Spirit indwelt Old Testament believers, or does this go deeper?"

I think there could be a couple of reasons, so I'll state them:

1) To me, you're trying to establish whether or not the new birth and Spirit indwelling go hand-in-hand.
I'm convinced that they do, but I also believe that in Old Testament saints it was not across-the-board true for all;
While in New Testament believers it most definitely is.

That is what I was trying to get across to you, however poorly I phrased it...
My apologies for not being clearer.

Dave, we're not told whether or not the Spirit was with Nicodemus or in him.
Where the Scripture is silent on a matter, shouldn't we be?
And where we can safely say that something applies to all, then are we on safe ground and can declare it?
As I see it, we can speculate about it, but at the end of the day all we can do is make an educated guess.

The truth is, I don't know, because God does not address this anywhere regarding Nicodemus.
But once thing we do know...after the Lord Jesus rose again, the Spirit would have been in Nicodemus, not just with him.

2) You're also trying to establish whether or not Old Testament believers were born again. Most of those that are called "Calvinists" believe that they were, while it seems that most who are not labeled as "Calvinists" believe that they were not.
I think I've established, from the Scriptures, that they were... and at least some of God's people were indeed indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

You may disagree with my assessment ( and that is your prerogative ), but to carry this any farther would be unprofitable, don't you think?
This is the main reason I wanted to cut short my replies in this thread;
To avoid the back-and-forth so it doesn't get "ratcheted up" and become a full-blown argument...
Which is one thing the Lord does not want His people to engage in.

That said, I am taking my leave of the thread now.
It is your right and privilege to carry it further, but I will not participate.


I wish you well, and may God bless you.

 

[Dave...]

Gal 3:2-3 isnt about regeneration, they had been already regenerated when they were hearing with Faith, then the fell upon them much like with Cornelius and his crew when they were hearing Peters preaching, the Spirit fell upon them Acts 10:34-45

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all

37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Cornelius and his group were already regenerated because they feared God, which none do by nature.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Thats receiving the Spirit by the hearing of Faith

Cornelius and his group were OT believers. The sheep. Just like Lydia, just like Acts 19. It's the transition from the OT to the NT that I've been telling you about. Unrepeatable.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

No resurrection, no salvation.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The Holy Spirit indwelling places us in Christ. Then there must be the ingredients.