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John 1:12-13 revisited.

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Dave, I was you.

I might know your theology better than you do. I'm simply asking you to let Scripture define itself. When you start with the idea that there are only two options, born again or the flesh, that's going to wreak havoc on your interpretation of Scripture.

Believe it or not, not all past reformed theologians believed that OT believers were born again. Martin Luther being one of them. Look it up. It's only recently that it has become the norm. I think todays reformed theology got lazy and big headed from arguing with Arminians. It made them dull in their understanding. Test yourself, honestly, and see what happens.
...and I was you once.

However, I'm not "Reformed", nor did I ever read anything outside of God's word to get where I am in my current understanding...
And I always let the Lord speak, and for Scripture to define itself.

Unfortunately, the "idea" that there are only two "options",

1) a person who is "in Christ" and born again / indwelt with the Spirit of God, or
2) a person who isn't and is "in the flesh",

... are the two options that Scriptures itself gives, in no uncertain terms:

" For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,
if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." ( Romans 8:5-9 )

I have no trouble understanding this truth from what I read in the above.
"In the flesh" means "not born again" and devoid of the Spirit of God, while "in the Spirit" here means ( at least to me ) "born again" and indwelt with the Spirit of God.

But since it appears that you don't see this, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then, and leave it at that.
As for the rest of this thread, my posts appear not to have had the affect that I had hoped for, so I'll take my leave of it and wish you well.


May God bless you.
 
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Dave...

Member
...and I was you once.

However, I'm not "Reformed", nor did I ever read anything outside of God's word to get where I am in my current understanding...
And I always let the Lord speak, and for Scripture to define itself.

Unfortunately, the "idea" that there are only two "options",

Were these born again?

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

I've shown you other options. The Holy Spirit being upon a believers, but not in him. The presence of God, Jesus, God incarnate in the NT. God in the OT Temple. God in His Word.

1) a person who is "in Christ" and born again / indwelt with the Spirit of God, or
2) a person who isn't and is "in the flesh",

The problem is that nobody in the OT was indwelt. Thus, nobody was born again. Yet they believed. How do you reconcile that?

... are the two options that Scriptures itself gives, in no uncertain terms:

" For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,
if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." ( Romans 8:5-9 )

Yes, this is the difference between those who are in Christ and those who are not. How is a person placed into Christ? What does Scripture say? Was this possible in the OT?

I have no trouble understanding this truth from what I read in the above.
"In the flesh" means "not born again" and devoid of the Spirit of God, while "in the Spirit" here means ( at least to me ) "born again" and indwelt with the Spirit of God.

Most reformed people also agree with your statement. Now, what of the OT believers? They believed, but were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit. How do you reconcile your belief with Scripture?
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
@Dave G

"In the flesh" means "not born again" and devoid of the Spirit of God, while "in the Spirit" here means ( at least to me ) "born again" and indwelt with the Spirit of God.

Agreed, and as long as we are in the flesh, unregenerate, we cannot but mind the things of the flesh Rom 8:5

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

This applies to even our most sincere religious endeavours, its only the flesh being pleased.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The problem is that nobody in the OT was indwelt. Thus, nobody was born again.

The problem here is that you've placed little or no thought into this, most likely due to your eagerness to disprove 'Reformed' views, which is typical of internet board 'Calvinist-slayers'.

It's not 'born again', it's 'born from above'.

As in:

But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4:26

As in:

3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.
5 Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.
6 Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Selah
7 They that sing as well as they that dance shall say, All my fountains are in thee. Ps 87

There's nothing 'new' about Christ's revelation given in Jn 3:8. 'Born from above' is a direct reference to the children of the heavenly Zion. Every saint that ever was, OT or NT, are children of 'HER', and this includes God's children among the nations, of which there were more of than Israelites under the old covenant.

And, before anyone can enter into or even see the long awaited kingdom of God here on earth, they must first be a child of the heavenly Jerusalem. One must first be 'born from above' before one can enter into 'the regeneration'.

The children of the heavenly Zion have always been the true Jews, the real Israel, thus we’re told, “they are not all Israel, that are of Israel, neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children”.
 
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kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
nobody in the OT was indwelt

...and you say it with such assuredness.

Isaiah Chapter 57

15​

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite.

This alone...:

Psalms Chapter 119

162​

I rejoice at thy word, As one that findeth great spoil.


...should cause you to question how 'flesh', void of the Spirit, could rejoice in the fraction of the canon that we have now.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
The problem here is that you've placed little or no thought into this, most likely due to your eagerness to disprove 'Reformed' views, which is typical of internet board 'Calvinist-slayers'.

It's not 'born again', it's 'born from above'.

As in:

But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4:26

As in:

3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.
5 Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.
6 Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Selah
7 They that sing as well as they that dance shall say, All my fountains are in thee. Ps 87

There's nothing 'new' about Christ's revelation given in Jn 3:8. 'Born from above' is a direct reference to the children of the heavenly Zion. Every saint that ever was, OT or NT, are children of 'HER', and this includes God's children among the nations, of which there were more of than Israelites under the old covenant.

And, before anyone can enter into or even see the long awaited kingdom of God here on earth, they must first be a child of the heavenly Jerusalem. One must first be 'born from above' before one can enter into 'the regeneration'.

The children of the heavenly Zion have always been the true Jews, the real Israel, thus we’re told, “they are not all Israel, that are of Israel, neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children”.
Isaac was born after the Spirit as is the New Covenant Believer Gal 4 28-29

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Isaac was born after the Spirit as is the New Covenant Believer Gal 4 28-29

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Precisely. He was born from Jerusalem above just as every saint that ever was.

Galatians Chapter 4

26​

But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.

27​

For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.

28​

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

29​

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Precisely. He was born from Jerusalem above just as every saint that ever was.

Galatians Chapter 4

26​

But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.

27​

For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.

28​

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

29​

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now.
Right all the Spiritual seed of Abraham/Christ will be born from above Jn 3:3

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,ἄνωθεν[from above] he cannot see the kingdom of God.
 

Dave...

Member
It's not 'born again', it's 'born from above'.
Hey KY, back again I see. :)

Nicodemus' reply would seem to be a rather odd one in John 3 if the idea of being born again was not, at the very least, implied in the definition. Given the fact that it is translated born again, and not born of God, I'll stick with what it says. Tomayto - tomahto.

But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4:26

As in:

3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.
5 Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.
6 Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Selah
7 They that sing as well as they that dance shall say, All my fountains are in thee. Ps 87
There's nothing 'new' about Christ's revelation given in Jn 3:8. 'Born from above' is a direct reference to the children of the heavenly Zion. Every saint that ever was, OT or NT, are children of 'HER', and this includes God's children among the nations, of which there were more of than Israelites under the old covenant.

And, before anyone can enter into or even see the long awaited kingdom of God here on earth, they must first be a child of the heavenly Jerusalem. One must first be 'born from above' before one can enter into 'the regeneration'.

The children of the heavenly Zion have always been the true Jews, the real Israel, thus we’re told, “they are not all Israel, that are of Israel, neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children”.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

When was that promise fulfilled?

Look at the context.

Gal. 4:21-31 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband." Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

It's a type, a picture. Hagar and Isaac were types of a NT reality. It doesn't say that Isaac was born again, if that's what you're implying. But he did, in type, represent those who would be born again in the NT.

When was the Promise realized? Include Psalm 87:3-7 in this...

Go back to the end of chapter three.

Galatians 3:26-29 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

It was realized at Pentecost.

Acts 1:1-5 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

By the time Galatians was written, after Pentecost, it was already a reality.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
 

Dave...

Member
@kyredneck
@Brightfame52
@Dave G

In Galatians 4, with reference to Isaac, "Born of the Spirit" (as opposed to the flesh), in the context used by Paul, is speaking of the miracle of the physical birth of Isaac, since it was well past Sarah's child bearing years. Thus He was born of the Spirit, physically, but miraculously. This foreshadowed the spiritual new birth of believers in the New Testament, which is a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit (spiritually) and independent from human effort.

In short, Isaac was a physical type of a future spiritual reality. There are more parts to this type, but they don't apply to the discussion at hand.
 
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