John 1:12-13 revisited.

[Dave G]

Dave, I was you.

I might know your theology better than you do. I'm simply asking you to let Scripture define itself. When you start with the idea that there are only two options, born again or the flesh, that's going to wreak havoc on your interpretation of Scripture.

Believe it or not, not all past reformed theologians believed that OT believers were born again. Martin Luther being one of them. Look it up. It's only recently that it has become the norm. I think todays reformed theology got lazy and big headed from arguing with Arminians. It made them dull in their understanding. Test yourself, honestly, and see what happens.

...and I was you once.

However, I'm not "Reformed", nor did I ever read anything outside of God's word to get where I am in my current understanding...
And I always let the Lord speak, and for Scripture to define itself.

Unfortunately, the "idea" that there are only two "options",

1) a person who is "in Christ" and born again / indwelt with the Spirit of God, or
2) a person who isn't and is "in the flesh",

... are the two options that Scriptures itself gives, in no uncertain terms:

" For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." ( Romans 8:5-9 )

I have no trouble understanding this truth from what I read in the above.
"In the flesh" means "not born again" and devoid of the Spirit of God, while "in the Spirit" here means ( at least to me ) "born again" and indwelt with the Spirit of God.

But since it appears that you don't see this, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then, and leave it at that.
As for the rest of this thread, my posts appear not to have had the affect that I had hoped for, so I'll take my leave of it and wish you well.


May God bless you.

 

[Dave...]

...and I was you once.

However, I'm not "Reformed", nor did I ever read anything outside of God's word to get where I am in my current understanding...
And I always let the Lord speak, and for Scripture to define itself.

Unfortunately, the "idea" that there are only two "options",

Were these born again?

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

I've shown you other options. The Holy Spirit being upon a believers, but not in him. The presence of God, Jesus, God incarnate in the NT. God in the OT Temple. God in His Word.

1) a person who is "in Christ" and born again / indwelt with the Spirit of God, or
2) a person who isn't and is "in the flesh",

The problem is that nobody in the OT was indwelt. Thus, nobody was born again. Yet they believed. How do you reconcile that?

... are the two options that Scriptures itself gives, in no uncertain terms:

" For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." ( Romans 8:5-9 )

Yes, this is the difference between those who are in Christ and those who are not. How is a person placed into Christ? What does Scripture say? Was this possible in the OT?

I have no trouble understanding this truth from what I read in the above.
"In the flesh" means "not born again" and devoid of the Spirit of God, while "in the Spirit" here means ( at least to me ) "born again" and indwelt with the Spirit of God.

Most reformed people also agree with your statement. Now, what of the OT believers? They believed, but were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit. How do you reconcile your belief with Scripture?

 

[Brightfame52]

@Dave G

"In the flesh" means "not born again" and devoid of the Spirit of God, while "in the Spirit" here means ( at least to me ) "born again" and indwelt with the Spirit of God.

Agreed, and as long as we are in the flesh, unregenerate, we cannot but mind the things of the flesh Rom 8:5

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

This applies to even our most sincere religious endeavours, its only the flesh being pleased.