But being gunned down, knifed, or otherwise killed by others due to them being demon possessed, drugged/drunk/ etc is not death by Martyrdom
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Self defense and security teams?
- Thread starter John of Japan
- Start date
God still dispatched an angel to slay 185000 of the enemies of God in one night, not too much there "turning other cheeck"
Not actually relevant to the discussion at hand. We have to distinguish between the differing ministrations of God throughout Scripture. He also told Israel to destroy the inhabitants of Canaan, not something He would require of Christians under New Covenant doctrine.
It gets a little iffy in a discussion like this, and I think both sides can make great points as to why they decide one way or the other. However, if we consider the principle's that work their way through every Age we can make some conclusions as to what the mind of God would be. Since one of the first principles we learn about God is that murderers (and that is what everyone who takes a gun into public and willfully takes the lives of others is) are not to be tolerated, and this is a common view God maintains throughout every Age, I think it reasonable to conclude that the murderer has forfeited his own life by acting contrary to God's will. It doesn't matter that he doesn't know it, that knowledge should have been taught him by his parents and society. And I think it also reasonable to say—he does know it.
Romans 13:3-4
King James Version
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Every deacon or member of a fellowship that has duly appointed to the task of dealing with intruders has, in my personal opinion, as much authority within our culture as a policeman, and if putting the intruder to death becomes necessary, so be it. To stand by and let someone murder others and not do something about violates numerous principles God has maintained since the very beginning of the Revelation of His will. It is not ordaining men for a "crusade," because they don't go out looking for people to put to death in God's Name. They perform a function that, sadly, has become almost necessary in some parts of our country.
Again, I view them as having a God-appointed position and serve as revengers of God's wrath.
I think it also possible that some of these guys probably "case" their intended targets, and if so, knowing there are armed members is probably a great deterrent.
I'll leave you with a question: if a fellowship hired an off-duty, unbelieving policeman for this cause, would that be okay?
God bless.
I agree...but I view the application differently (protecting against powers in tge "spiritual realm").
The important thing is that there is a prayer and fasting routine in place, specifically for protection, make it part of community prayer, home prayer.
Whether people are home or far away, in Church or at work or at study.
Build a storehouse of Grace by prayer and fasting.
At Grace pray also for times of famine for your food to multiplied in your need and medication.
Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition - Wikipedia
I take the view that "the spiritual realm" involves the flesh of wicked men as well. When we see people commit heinous crimes, I believe many of them operate under demonic possession. And even when it is simply the evil within men, there's still good reason not to stand around and watch evil act out. Especially when it comes to the gathering of believers.
I can respect your view, but I cannot agree that our responsibilities to each other end with prayer. Being prepared for occasions like this can't hurt, in my view, and as I said before, likely serve as a deterrent.
God bless.
Christforums
Active Member
Christforums
Active Member
I can't stand the "hand on hip pacifist", their passive aggressiveness, and the pacifism that affects most of Christendom today. One of the difficult things about referring to the Old Testament as the "Old" is that the historic military nature and heritage of Israel is often "spiritualized" today in the church. Whenever somebody says, we are warriors or soldiers in the spiritual context I am thinking, "but not really". Especially when the prayer following entails the mass executions and persecutions of Christians.
I do not believe in "replacement theology", and in the context of the church the church often replaces Israel throughout the pages by interpretation, "but not really".
I do not believe in "replacement theology", and in the context of the church the church often replaces Israel throughout the pages by interpretation, "but not really".
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Yes, the "spiritual realm" involves the flesh of both saints and sinners (this is the powers behind our desires, what is manifested in the flesh). For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Christforums
Active Member
I appreciate you @JonC addressing Ephesians 6:12 in the "spiritual realm" context. The Apostle Paul is using military metaphors and addresses our day-to-day struggles. There are of course exceptions, for example, when our physical existence is not only threatened but actually harmed. In these cases, Paul addresses right motives, not in vengeance but of course the proper course of action exists "ideally", that is, considering the design of government to actually wield the sword and that is not a metaphor but to become an obstacle and combat evil by physically executing justice.
That gives us a realistic perspective on what and how we should appeal to our civil magistrates (rulers). The Law is not in our hands to execute because "like" Israel, Israel was put under subjection by many enemies including Rome. Then again, it was never in the hands of the individual Israelite but involved their civil magistrates. Self-defense, however, is not about executing justice for crimes committed which could involve life or restitution but preventing unrighteous acts that are an immediate imminent danger to our or the life of others. Self-defense, perhaps, can only truly be appreciated by the "Sanctity of Life" position. However, that is so far from our society today it is out of touch w/ the present and any foreseeable reality. Metaphors..... are sometimes inappropriate and sometimes convey the only option against evil rulers.
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I just try to keep in mind what Jesus said regarding the expectation that the Messiah would fight against injustice in their environment when He said "My kingdom is not of this world".
Going to have to disagree. This is spoken with a context of the Body of Christ and refers to conduct within the body.
Romans 13
King James Version
13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
As I mentioned before, those given the authority by Pastors and Ministers have more of a right to defend His Sanctuary than police officers, in my view. While I would not fault a Pastor that takes no precautions to keep his flock safe, neither would I fault a Pastor to do so, and to me it's just common sense. This isn't a matter of going out into the world and dealing with the lost, this is the lost coming into the church to perform evil.
So I ask you, do you feel Pastors who do so are in violation of the will of God? Do Pastors fall into the category of the higher powers we are to be subject to? Or does that apply only to the secular world?
From a secular standpoint, murder is against the will of the People, because that is the Law. Does this warning apply only to believers? It doesn't apply to the murderer? And when a believer confronts evil, are they not doing the very will of God Himself?
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
God does not use believers to execute wrath upon him that does evil?
Was Christ wrong to kick over tables and cast unbelievers out? Or do we say, well, that principle is limited to the Old Testament?
God bless.
Yes, we disagree on this point. I dont believe our struggle against authorities and powers is within the church.
I think your questions are great
God does not use believers to execute wrath upon him that does evil? No.
Was Christ wrong to kick over tables and cast unbelievers out? He was right to overturn the tables, and this was within the religious structure. I do not know which incident you mean with Jesus kicking unbelievers out.
Or do we say, well, that principle is limited to the Old Testament? Depends on the principle. God did not use Chrustians to exercise His wrath on the World in the OT. In the OT Israel found itself on both the giving and receiving side of victory over enemies.
Does that mean we should not serve on juries - esp when giving the punishment?
Well, if you don't think there is a spiritual battle going on in the assembling of the brethren, I don't know what to tell you.
But that's a different discussion altogether, lol.
Again, we are looking at an issue that is not involving the Body, it is the world entering into the House of God with murderous intent.
John 2:15
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
As far as this being a "religious structure," I have to tell you, "religion" is not a four-letter-word. The Sanctuary is more the House of God than the Temple ever was. The Temple was a picture of the Body. A figure for the time then present. While we pride ourselves in saying that Christianity is a relationship and not a religion (and that is true), Christianity has a religious "structure." And I don't mean the building, I mean the Body, and those things that the Body performs. Communion can be called a religious event without it being vilified or compared to what we would both view as "religious." The singing of psalms, the teaching and preaching of the Word.
I would suggest that the Lord places as much importance on the "religious structure" of His Church as He did the Temple.
God demanded of His People, Israel, the Old Testament figure for the Church to kill. Not to murder, but to kill. And while I agree that there is no mandate for Christians to be militant—that isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about the defense of the flock, not an assault on the world. Many soldiers and police officers are Christians, and they are called to kill at times. That they are appointed by God for that role is the point I have tried to make: I view those running security to not only be appointed by God for that task, I think it is just a common-sense position to take in these days. As I said, we simply lock our doors, and to my knowledge no one carries, but the larger facilities have men that do. I have several friends (and even a relative) who attend such services. I look at it as God's will.
But that's just me.
Okay, I'm done with this thread, lol. I can't make what I believe about it any clearer, brother.
God bless.
Christforums
Active Member
To believe that church history would be denied, early Reformers condemned the popes at the time as the anti-Christ.
Were their rulers limited to within the body of Christ? What about the Emperor Nero? Another many believed and condemned to be the anti-Christ.
Christians are warned throughout the NT about the man of lawlessness.
Not really sure what it is you're asking. My point was contrasting the difference between the Body going out into the world on the offense, and the Body taking precautions within assemblies.
No, you lovingly allow your neighbor or your neighbors children to be victimized.