No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[atpollard]

Why do you struggle with faith BF.

Now wait a minute, accusing me of being “BF” is going too far! That’s just mean and unfair to @Brightfame52.

 

[Silverhair]

Now wait a minute, accusing me of being “BF” is going too far! That’s just mean and unfair to @Brightfame52.

My Bad. My sincere apology for the misnaming. Went back and changed the name to {fill in the blank}

Do not recall if you call faith a work so if not then the post would not apply to you.

 

[atpollard]

My Bad. My sincere apology for the misnaming. Went back and changed the name to {fill in the blank}

Do not recall if you call faith a work so if not then the post would not apply to you.

No worries. I just found it funny.

 

[Brightfame52]

Man by nature can't by his own freewill ability come to Christ because all men by nature are spiritually dead in [in the sphere of] trespasses and sins. Speaking of Gods elect Paul writes of them by nature Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The word dead here nekros means:

adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.

The lifeless here by nature is lifeless spiritually. Spiritually to God and things of God man naturally is liken to a dead lifeless corpse.

Jesus used this same word here Matt 8:22

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Now the dead was to bury the dead. The Spiritually dead person was to bury the physically dead person. Yet the Spiritually dead person wasn't dead physically was he ? Did you know that one can be dead, lifeless and yet be physically live and active ?

Now in order for a man to come to Christ he must first have life, no not physical life but spiritual life which not even the elect have by nature. 2

 

[atpollard]

Man by nature can't by his own freewill ability come to Christ because all men by nature are spiritually dead in [in the sphere of] trespasses and sins. Speaking of Gods elect Paul writes of them by nature Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The word dead here nekros means:

adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.

The lifeless here by nature is lifeless spiritually. Spiritually to God and things of God man naturally is liken to a dead lifeless corpse.

Jesus used this same word here Matt 8:22

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Now the dead was to bury the dead. The Spiritually dead person was to bury the physically dead person. Yet the Spiritually dead person wasn't dead physically was he ? Did you know that one can be dead, lifeless and yet be physically live and active ?

Now in order for a man to come to Christ he must first have life, no not physical life but spiritual life which not even the elect have by nature. 2

I agree with that interpretation, but I also recognize that I am biased towards that view. [John 6:44 predisposes me to the belief that God MUST initiate salvation.]

So in Ephesians 2:1, how can we be certain that "who were dead in trespasses and sins" meant "man cannot come to God as a corpse cannot do anything" and was not intended to signify a spiritual state of rebellion? ("you are all dead to me" - said God).

 

[Brightfame52]

I agree with that interpretation, but I also recognize that I am biased towards that view. [John 6:44 predisposes me to the belief that God MUST initiate salvation.]

So in Ephesians 2:1, how can we be certain that "who were dead in trespasses and sins" meant "man cannot come to God as a corpse cannot do anything" and was not intended to signify a spiritual state of rebellion? ("you are all dead to me" - said God).

He does more than initiate salvation, He goes all the way and saves.

 

[Silverhair]

Man by nature can't by his own freewill ability come to Christ because all men by nature are spiritually dead in [in the sphere of] trespasses and sins. Speaking of Gods elect Paul writes of them by nature Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The word dead here nekros means:

adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.

The lifeless here by nature is lifeless spiritually. Spiritually to God and things of God man naturally is liken to a dead lifeless corpse.

Jesus used this same word here Matt 8:22

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Now the dead was to bury the dead. The Spiritually dead person was to bury the physically dead person. Yet the Spiritually dead person wasn't dead physically was he ? Did you know that one can be dead, lifeless and yet be physically live and active ?

Now in order for a man to come to Christ he must first have life, no not physical life but spiritual life which not even the elect have by nature. 2

Your interpretation has been coloured by your bias. We should let the bible give us guidance.

Joh 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.

Jesus said that He gave life to whomever He pleased and then went on to describe those people as those who hear His word and believe the Father.

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

But what condition were these people in spiritually prior to hearing the gospel message? They were in Jesus's words "dead" but this did not stop them from responding to the message. [Rom 1:16]

Joh 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

"Realized eschatology" is the aspect of future conditions that exist already in the present. In this case it refers to the believer's possession of eternal life already. Beasley-Murray called this verse "the strongest affirmation of realized eschatology applied to the believer in the NT." [Note: Beasley-Murray, p. 76.]

People pass from death to life the moment they believe [1Jn_3:14]

 

[Silverhair]

I agree with that interpretation, but I also recognize that I am biased towards that view. [John 6:44 predisposes me to the belief that God MUST initiate salvation.]

So in Ephesians 2:1, how can we be certain that "who were dead in trespasses and sins" meant "man cannot come to God as a corpse cannot do anything" and was not intended to signify a spiritual state of rebellion? ("you are all dead to me" - said God).

You see man prior to salvation as a spiritual corpse but if so then how do they sin?

As you said you have a bias but the remedy for that is to read the word that Jesus spoke.

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Jesus makes it clear that the time when the [spiritually] dead will hear the voice of the Son of God unto life is “now.” How does this happen? It happens through faith in Christ,
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears G191 (G5723) My word and believes G4100 (G5723) in Him who sent Me has G2192 (G5719) everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Here Jesus plainly describes the initial movement from spiritual death to spiritual life. The one who hears the words of Jesus in faith (just hearing is not enough, they must also believe/trust) passes from spiritual death to spiritual life. This clearly marks the transition from death to life and that is a perfect description of what constitutes regeneration.

So the oft repeated C/R analogy of the preacher in the morgue preaching to a corpse is shown to be in contrast to the words of Jesus.

Jesus tells us that the “dead” will “hear” (in faith) unto “life” and the C/R' tells us that only those who are already regenerated can “hear” unto faith. Jesus says that hearing and faith come before life and C/R's says that life comes before hearing and faith. C/R's say that the “dead” cannot possibly hear anything, just like a lifeless physical corpse. Jesus tells us that the “dead” can hear (Rom_10:17; Gal_3:2), and this hearing by faith is what moves those who hear from the state of spiritual death to the state of spiritual life.

So are you going to allow your personal bias overrule the words of Christ Jesus?

 

[atpollard]

You see man prior to salvation as a spiritual corpse but if so then how do they sin?

Like this ...

Romans 7:13-25 [NKJV]
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that [it is] good. 17 But now, [it is] no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but [how] to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will [to do], I do not do; but the evil I will not [to do], that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not [to do], it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Which is an echo of the same reality found in all men (without the law) here:

Romans 1:18-23 [NKJV]
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [it] to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Thus we see, with or without the Law, men can have knowledge (mind/thought/reason) of the truth and still be completely unwilling (incapable?) of ACTING on that knowledge RIGHTLY.

We can KNOW God, and still be futile in our thinking.
We can WANT to do good, but find ourselves a slave to sin doing the thing we hate.

Paul cries out "Who will deliver me from this body of death?" ... and provides a clear answer in another letter: "it is God who works in you both to will and to do for [His] good pleasure." - [Philippians 2:13]

We are DEAD to the things of God and alive to the things of the flesh, just as Ephesians 2 describes:

And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. - Ephesians 2:1-3 [NKJV]

 

[atpollard]

As you said you have a bias but the remedy for that is to read the word that Jesus spoke.

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Jesus makes it clear that the time when the [spiritually] dead will hear the voice of the Son of God unto life is “now.” How does this happen? It happens through faith in Christ,
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears G191 (G5723) My word and believes G4100 (G5723) in Him who sent Me has G2192 (G5719) everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Here Jesus plainly describes the initial movement from spiritual death to spiritual life. The one who hears the words of Jesus in faith (just hearing is not enough, they must also believe/trust) passes from spiritual death to spiritual life. This clearly marks the transition from death to life and that is a perfect description of what constitutes regeneration.

So the oft repeated C/R analogy of the preacher in the morgue preaching to a corpse is shown to be in contrast to the words of Jesus.

Jesus tells us that the “dead” will “hear” (in faith) unto “life” and the C/R' tells us that only those who are already regenerated can “hear” unto faith. Jesus says that hearing and faith come before life and C/R's says that life comes before hearing and faith. C/R's say that the “dead” cannot possibly hear anything, just like a lifeless physical corpse. Jesus tells us that the “dead” can hear (Rom_10:17; Gal_3:2), and this hearing by faith is what moves those who hear from the state of spiritual death to the state of spiritual life.

So are you going to allow your personal bias overrule the words of Christ Jesus?

Physician, Heal thyself.
The only difference between us is that I can see my bias and you are blind to yours.

Did Jesus say that "no man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him"?
Why do YOU not believe Jesus that the Father must first draw?

Did Jesus say "you do not believe because you are not my sheep" (rather than "you are not my sheep because you do not believe") and did Jesus not go on to say that His sheep were given to Him by the Father?
Why do YOU not believe Jesus that the Father must give the sheep?

Did God tell Moses "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" and did the Apostle Paul elaborate on that by stating: "So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."?
Why do YOU not believe God and Paul that it is NOT in the power of man who wills, but in God the Father who chooses whom He will show mercy on?

 

[Silverhair]

Like this ...

Romans 7:13-25

Not according to your religion they cannot. A corpse can do nothing as the C/R's are want to say.

I do find it funny how you can have a spiritual corpse sin but that same spiritual corpse cannot hear and believe.

But as I have shown you and which you seem to ignore, Christ says that those C/R "spiritual corpses" can hear and respond.

We all know that man sins but the C/R's have taken that to mean they can do nothing else but sin. The bible says man, even the sinful man, can and does do good deeds. Not good deeds onto salvation but still good deeds.

What does Paul say he is doing on a continuing basis? He is at war with his mind and body. He chose too trust and follow God but in his bidy he still sins. So we see that even for the Christian this battle will continue. Free will is the ability to make real choices as we see Paul doing.

He even tells us how we can be set free from the body of death, through faith in Christ Jesus.

Which is an echo of the same reality found in all men (without the law) here:

Romans 1:18-23 [

Man knows of God and God says because he knows of God he has not excuse. Man can, as God indicates, choose to follow Him. They chose to suppress the truth. That shows free will. Man may be unwilling but he is obviously capable of trusting in God or they would have the best excuse going.

We also see where Paul says that man can turn to God in faith Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, [Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10]

Thus we see, with or without the Law, men can have knowledge (mind/thought/reason) of the truth and still be completely unwilling (incapable?) of ACTING on that knowledge RIGHTLY.

We can KNOW God, and still be futile in our thinking.
We can WANT to do good, but find ourselves a slave to sin doing the thing we hate.

You go to the extreme when you make the error of assuming that man cannot freely trust in Christ, that he cannot do good. God on the other had says man has no excuse because He knows man can do just that. And we also know that man does just that. As we are told, we love God because He first loved us. But love has to be freely given or it is not love.

Paul cries out "Who will deliver me from this body of death?" ... and provides a clear answer in another letter: "it is God who works in you both to will and to do for [His] good pleasure." - [Philippians 2:13]

Yes God works in believers to give us the strength to overcome this sinful body.Just as we arre told in 1Co 10:13 "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it."

We are DEAD to the things of God and alive to the things of the flesh, just as Ephesians 2 describes:

And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. - Ephesians 2:1-3

What we see in Eph 2 is that even though we were dead in sin God has provided the way for our salvation.
Eph 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
So the question then is why would God be gracious and save us sinners.
Eph 2:8 -9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[Brightfame52]

Your interpretation has been coloured by your bias. We should let the bible give us guidance.

Joh 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.

Jesus said that He gave life to whomever He pleased and then went on to describe those people as those who hear His word and believe the Father.

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

But what condition were these people in spiritually prior to hearing the gospel message? They were in Jesus's words "dead" but this did not stop them from responding to the message. [Rom 1:16]

Joh 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

"Realized eschatology" is the aspect of future conditions that exist already in the present. In this case it refers to the believer's possession of eternal life already. Beasley-Murray called this verse "the strongest affirmation of realized eschatology applied to the believer in the NT." [Note: Beasley-Murray, p. 76.]

People pass from death to life the moment they believe [1Jn_3:14]

Before regeneration we are dead in sin, alienated from the life of God, practically without hope Eph 2:12

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

What does " having no hope" mean ? Could they just exercise their freewill ? lol

 

[atpollard]

What we see in Eph 2 is that even though we were dead in sin God has provided the way for our salvation.
Eph 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
So the question then is why would God be gracious and save us sinners.
Eph 2:8 -9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Eph 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

GOD made us alive.
GOD DID IT; we did not exercise our free will and choose it ... we were "dead".


Eph 2:8 -9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Our "salvation" is a gift of God ... not a free choice of man.
It is NOT of ourselves ... we do NOT freely choose to believe, because that would be OF OURSELVES and this is NOT of ourselves.

See your bias.

 

[Silverhair]

Physician, Heal thyself.
The only difference between us is that I can see my bias and you are blind to yours.

Did Jesus say that "no man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him"?
Why do YOU not believe Jesus that the Father must first draw?

Did Jesus say "you do not believe because you are not my sheep" (rather than "you are not my sheep because you do not believe") and did Jesus not go on to say that His sheep were given to Him by the Father?
Why do YOU not believe Jesus that the Father must give the sheep?

Did God tell Moses "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" and did the Apostle Paul elaborate on that by stating: "So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."?
Why do YOU not believe God and Paul that it is NOT in the power of man who wills, but in God the Father who chooses whom He will show mercy on?

I have quoted John 12:32 many times and have said that God draws man through various means. Creation, conviction of sin, the gospel message, etc.
So how can you ask if I believe God draws man to Himself?

I am not blind to my bias. I have stated it more than once. I trust the word of God as clearly written being understood in the context in which it is found.

You quoted "you do not believe because you are not my sheep" but ignore the context in which the statement is found. Why do you continue to do that? Those that believe in Christ Jesus are His sheep so those that do not believe His works or words are not His sheep. You would understand this if you had bothered to study the context of that verse. Joh 10:22-28

Of course it is in the power of God as to whom He will give mercy. And we know that He shows mercy to those that have freely trusted in His son. We all deserve to be cast into hell for our sins but He has chosen to be merciful to those that trust in the risen Christ.

God’s mercy is not given to us
because of what we wish to do (him who wills), or
because of what we actually do (him who runs),
but simply out of His [God's] desire to show mercy.

Why do YOU continue to deny that God gives mercy to those that have freely trusted in His son?
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Only God can save, so mercy, but He only saves those that believe.

 

[Silverhair]

Before regeneration we are dead in sin, alienated from the life of God, practically without hope Eph 2:12

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

What does " having no hope" mean ? Could they just exercise their freewill ? lol

Regeneration means made anew, in other words born again. One is only born again when they have trusted in Christ Jesus.

Just as Paul has made clear we are saved by God when we respond with faith to the gospel message.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

You continue to fight against the clear word of God.

The bible is clear that we do exercise our free will.

The question is, why do you continue to deny this?

 

[Brightfame52]

Regeneration means made anew, in other words born again. One is only born again when they have trusted in Christ Jesus.

Just as Paul has made clear we are saved by God when we respond with faith to the gospel message.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

You continue to fight against the clear word of God.

The bible is clear that we do exercise our free will.

The question is, why do you continue to deny this?

Before regeneration we are dead in sin, no spiritual life Eph 2:1,5

 

[Silverhair]

Before regeneration we are dead in sin, no spiritual life Eph 2:1,5

True BF, before they freely trust in the risen Christ they have no spiritual life. But they do not need spiritual life in order to hear and respond to the gospel message. In actual fact that is the condition of all people before they respond to the gospel, we were all dead in our sins.

The bible is clear that we can hear and respond to the gospel message that is why we are told to preach the good news. [2Ti 4:2] The gospel is the power of God to salvation. [RRom 1:16]

I have shown you these verses [Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10, Rom 10:13-14, Eph 2:8-9] many many times and you just refuse to accept them BF. Why is that?

 

[Brightfame52]

True BF, before they freely trust in the risen Christ they have no spiritual life. But they do not need spiritual life in order to hear and respond to the gospel message. In actual fact that is the condition of all people before they respond to the gospel, we were all dead in our sins.

The bible is clear that we can hear and respond to the gospel message that is why we are told to preach the good news. [2Ti 4:2] The gospel is the power of God to salvation. [RRom 1:16]

I have shown you these verses [Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10, Rom 10:13-14, Eph 2:8-9] many many times and you just refuse to accept them BF. Why is that?

If one is Spiritually dead in sin, how can they perform spiritual actions?

 

[Brightfame52]

True BF, before they freely trust in the risen Christ they have no spiritual life. But they do not need spiritual life in order to hear and respond to the gospel message. In actual fact that is the condition of all people before they respond to the gospel, we were all dead in our sins.

The bible is clear that we can hear and respond to the gospel message that is why we are told to preach the good news. [2Ti 4:2] The gospel is the power of God to salvation. [RRom 1:16]

I have shown you these verses [Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10, Rom 10:13-14, Eph 2:8-9] many many times and you just refuse to accept them BF. Why is that?

How can a person hear spiritually if they don't have spiritual ears to hear?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

"No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !"

True! Freewill is a lie of satan.