Has God Ordained a certain style for Musical worship?

[Scripture More Accurately]

I never said that it did. The music has to be a form that they can use as a personal expression of worship. It is cultural. Most today would have trouble worshipping with the instruments and styles used in the 1st Century. And they would have had trouble using our traditional hymns.

When we worship God our worship is a oersonal expression of worship.

But let's look at your understanding.

What styles of worship music do you believe God disapproved of and what passage supports that conclusion?

No, the music that is used for corporate worship does not have to be "a form that they can use as a personal expression of worship." It has to be something that pleases God and He accepts.

Saying, "It is cultural," is mere assertion. You have to show that is true from Scripture.

Whether someone "has trouble" doing something is irrelevant if God has commanded it or required it.

Saying, "When we worship God our worship is a [p]ersonal expression of worship," sounds a lot like every man is to do what is right in his own eyes. The Bible shows that is a wrong approach to pleasing God and doing His will.

 

[David Lamb]

No, the music that is used for corporate worship does not have to be "a form that they can use as a personal expression of worship." It has to be something that pleases God and He accepts.

Saying, "It is cultural," is mere assertion. You have to show that is true from Scripture.

Whether someone "has trouble" doing something is irrelevant if God has commanded it or required it.

Saying, "When we worship God our worship is a [p]ersonal expression of worship," sounds a lot like every man is to do what is right in his own eyes. The Bible shows that is a wrong approach to pleasing God and doing His will.

I would say that a key verse in the matter of worship is this one:

Joh 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

As far as I am aware, the New Testament doesn't say anything about musical styles to be used in worship, which musical instruments are acceptable to accomany the singing, and similar things.

 

[John of Japan]

I would say that a key verse in the matter of worship is this one:

Joh 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

As far as I am aware, the New Testament doesn't say anything about musical styles to be used in worship, which musical instruments are acceptable to accomany the singing, and similar things.

This is true about the NT, but we do have hints in the OT. When you look at the lists of instruments used to praise God in the temple orchestra, there is no drum, though the Egyptians had drums. (Caveat: there were, however, percussion instruments.) Again, in Psalm 150 we are given a list of acceptable instruments with which to praise God (not including drums).

 

[David Lamb]

This is true about the NT, but we do have hints in the OT. When you look at the lists of instruments used to praise God in the temple orchestra, there is no drum, though the Egyptians had drums. (Caveat: there were, however, percussion instruments.) Again, in Psalm 150 we are given a list of acceptable instruments with which to praise God (not including drums).

True, but I wonder how far you would take that? Psalm 150 includes these words:

“3 Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet; Praise Him with the lute and harp! 4 Praise Him with the timbrel and dance; Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes! 5 Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with clashing cymbals!” (Ps 150:3-5 NKJV)

We certainly don't read of any New Testament churches using lutes, harps, timbrels (a tambourine-like drum), or clashing cymbals.

 

[timf]

Music touches the emotions and can be a way to express one's devotion to God and even share this with other Christians.

Col_3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

There is a danger that the emotional aspect of music might be used as a sort of self-stimulation that, even though mentioning God, actually is used to focus on one's own feelings.

 

[JonC]

This is true about the NT, but we do have hints in the OT. When you look at the lists of instruments used to praise God in the temple orchestra, there is no drum, though the Egyptians had drums. (Caveat: there were, however, percussion instruments.) Again, in Psalm 150 we are given a list of acceptable instruments with which to praise God (not including drums).

I don't see Psalm 150 as a list of acceptable instruments with which to praise God but more the instruments they used.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I would say that a key verse in the matter of worship is this one:

Joh 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

As far as I am aware, the New Testament doesn't say anything about musical styles to be used in worship, which musical instruments are acceptable to accomany the singing, and similar things.

The NT does reveal that there are uses of musical instruments that produce sounds that are not acceptable for use in corporate worship.

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

In a profoundly negative comparison, the Spirit plainly likens certain kinds of supernaturally produced but loveless speaking to the sounds produced by certain soundings of two percussion instruments. We know with certainty from explicit OT revelation that cymbals could be and were used by God's people to produce sounds that were acceptable to God, but this passage via the negative comparison used informs us that there are other soundings of cymbals that are not acceptable to Him for use in corporate worship.

The NT thus profoundly instructs us in this passage that there are unacceptable ways of sounding certain percussion instruments. All kinds of music that feature such soundings of percussion instruments are not acceptable to God for use in corporate worship, just as loveless speaking with the tongues of men and of angels was not acceptable to God in corporate worship.

 

[David Lamb]

The NT does reveal that there are uses of musical instruments that produce sounds that are not acceptable for use in corporate worship.

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

In a profoundly negative comparison, the Spirit plainly likens certain kinds of supernaturally produced but loveless speaking to the sounds produced by certain soundings of two percussion instruments. We know with certainty from explicit OT revelation that cymbals could be and were used by God's people to produce sounds that were acceptable to God, but this passage via the negative comparison used informs us that there are other soundings of cymbals that are not acceptable to Him for use in corporate worship.

The NT thus profoundly instructs us in this passage that there are unacceptable ways of sounding certain percussion instruments. All kinds of music that feature such soundings of percussion instruments are not acceptable to God for use in corporate worship, just as loveless speaking with the tongues of men and of angels is not acceptable to God in corporate worship.

But I would say that 1 Corinthians 13:1 is not talking about instruments to be used in worship, but about the effect of speaking fine-sounding words without true love. The sounding brass and the clanging cymbal are pictures that Paul uses to illustrate this.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

But I would say that 1 Corinthians 13:1 is not talking about instruments to be used in worship, but about the effect of speaking fine-sounding words without true love. The sounding brass and the clanging cymbal are pictures that Paul uses to illustrate this.

This is not correct. That verse is not talking about "fine-sounding words." It is talking about words that are unintelligible without someone's having supernaturally God-given ability to interpret those words.

Moreover, 1 Corinthians 13:1 is revelation about corporate worship because it is part of Paul's extensive treatment of spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 12-14) that must be used acceptably to God in corporate worship.

Saying, "The sounding brass and the clanging cymbal are pictures that Paul uses to illustrate" something is not what the text says. Moreover, the comparison only "works" if both parts of the comparison are factually true.

 

[David Lamb]

This is not correct. That verse is not talking about "fine-sounding words." It is talking about words that are unintelligible without someone's having supernaturally God-given ability to interpret those words.

Moreover, 1 Corinthians 13:1 is revelation about corporate worship because it is part of Paul's extensive treatment of spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 12-14) that must be used acceptably to God in corporate worship.

Saying, "The sounding brass and the clanging cymbal are pictures that Paul uses to illustrate" something is not what the text says. Moreover, the comparison only "works" if both parts of the comparison are factually true.

Although I agree that it could include worship, the chapter is about Christian living generally. He gives examples such as understanding all mysteries and knowledge, giving all his possessions for the benefit of the poor, and giving his body to be burned.

As for the brass and cymbal not being illustrations, surely you don't think Paul was really saying that if he spoke in the way he described, without love, he would actually turn into a brass object, or a cymbal.

 

[John of Japan]

True, but I wonder how far you would take that? Psalm 150 includes these words:

“3 Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet; Praise Him with the lute and harp! 4 Praise Him with the timbrel and dance; Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes! 5 Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with clashing cymbals!” (Ps 150:3-5 NKJV)

We certainly don't read of any New Testament churches using lutes, harps, timbrels (a tambourine-like drum), or clashing cymbals.

Very true. In fact, I seem to recall that for a while in the early church they did not allow musical instruments. But I have no trouble saying we can follow Psalm 150 as is. In our church we have an orchestra, including various stringed instruments (sans guitar, which however has appeared occasionally), and the tympani and cymbals. We have even had a tambourine show its face occasionally.

So I'm willing to follow OT Scripture about music in the NT church.

 

[John of Japan]

Correction - the music absolutely did not glorify God to you.

This is insulting. You have absolutely no factual evidence to say this. You weren't there. It was not your supporting church. You don't know what the building was like. You didn't hear the group. It was not your wife who suffered physically from the "music."

So apparently you think it glorifies God to cause physical discomfort and drive people away from your church with your music. We determined never to go back to that church, and never have.

And "glorifying God" is not some nebulous concept that we cannot describe. It is a real, definable thing.

CCM is lousy rock because it is not rock. Johnny Cash was a lousy Jazz singer as well.

Are you kidding me? A lot of CCM (not all) is rock: syncopation, strong electric base guitar, rock drum set (de rigueur in CCM), rhythm electric guitar, etc.

If that is not rock, how in the world do you define rock? Do you know anything about music theory? Do you play an instrument or know how to sing a part?

I mentioned attending the service in Kyoto. If I were honest, some of the music did not glorify God to me. I could not understand the words as I did not know the language. But I think it probably glorified God to those who understood Japaneese.

I do not think we can say the worship of other Christians absolutely did not glorify God in terms of God actually being glorified. We can only say whether we could worship in that style.

Sorry, but this statement doesn't make sense. "God actually being glorified." What is that?

For example, if I were to choose the absokute best music to glorify God it would be contemporary worship music. There would be guitars and drums. But I can also worship with hymns, it just would not be giving the best.

Why? Because worship is personal expressions of worship. Even corporate worship is a collection of individual expressions of worship.

Note: I need to say that I've been responding not to harass you but because I find this topic (and how we dress) fascinating. I love looking at both sides (or many sides) of the issue.

If you're not harassing me, please try to actually understand my posts. You've done a poor job with that.

 

[JonC]

This is insulting. You have absolutely no factual evidence to say this. You weren't there. It was not your supporting church. You don't know what the building was like. You didn't hear the group. It was not your wife who suffered physically from the "music."

So apparently you think it glorifies God to cause physical discomfort and drive people away from your church with your music. We determined never to go back to that church, and never have.

And "glorifying God" is not some nebulous concept that we cannot describe. It is a real, definable thing.



Are you kidding me? A lot of CCM (not all) is rock: syncopation, strong electric base guitar, rock drum set (de rigueur in CCM), rhythm electric guitar, etc.

If that is not rock, how in the world do you define rock? Do you know anything about music theory? Do you play an instrument or know how to sing a part?

Sorry, but this statement doesn't make sense. "God actually being glorified." What is that?

If you're not harassing me, please try to actually understand my posts. You've done a poor job with that.

I think you mistook my meaning (I worded it poorly).

The correction should read "Correction - to YOU the music did not glorify God".

We cannot say whether the music we dislike or suffer with glorifies God. We can onky say that we cannot worship with that music. Just because the music of some cultures hurts my ears (actually, affects me like fingernails on a chalkboard..hurts my brain more than ears) does not mean it hurts God's ears.

I did hear the group. I am not the criteria for determining what pleases God. One person may suffer with loud music while another suffer not being able to hear quite music.

Michal criticized David for worshipping in an undignified manner, all that dancing and banging around. Just like a commoner. Not sure God saw it that way.

Yes, CCM is not rock. It is not the instruments used but how they are played.

By God being glorified I mean God's glory proclaimed in the music and God being truely worshipped by those offering the praise.


I can only respond to what is written in a post (to the words on a screen). That is the trouble with this type of communication.

 

[JonC]

@John of Japan

This is my favorite worship song. You would call it rock (we know a different genre called "rock").

Do I expect everybody to like the music? No.
Do I expect everybody to like the lyrics? Obviously not. Many will complain it is repetitive.

Some would complain that there are people leading the music.

But to say that the song does not glorify God, or that the music is inappropriate for those worshipping by singing the song is, IMHO, anti-Christian (literally, against Christians).

BTW...Christian Rock is a different genre (Demon Slayer, Skilled, Red, Thousand Foot Krutch, Cutlass, etc).

 

[John of Japan]

I think you mistook my meaning (I worded it poorly).

The correction should read "Correction - to YOU the music did not glorify God".

That's semantically what you said before.

We cannot say whether the music we dislike or suffer with glorifies God. We can onky say that we cannot worship with that music. Just because the music of some cultures hurts my ears (actually, affects me like fingernails on a chalkboard..hurts my brain more than ears) does not mean it hurts God's ears.

I did hear the group. I am not the criteria for determining what pleases God. One person may suffer with loud music while another suffer not being able to hear quite music.

Michal criticized David for worshipping in an undignified manner, all that dancing and banging around. Just like a commoner. Not sure God saw it that way.

Yes, CCM is not rock. It is not the instruments used but how they are played.

By God being glorified I mean God's glory proclaimed in the music and God being truely worshipped by those offering the praise.


I can only respond to what is written in a post (to the words on a screen). That is the trouble with this type of communication.

Please define rock. What are the musical characteristics?

 

[JonC]

That's semantically what you said before.

Please define rock. What are the musical characteristics?

Kinda. I thought you were reading it as the music not glorifying God in your mind (you do not see it as God glorifying) as opposed to God actually being glorified (what I was trying to communicate).

Many traditional hymn music is not Glorifying God to me. But reading the lyrics I know that hymns glorifying God.

Yes, per your definition rock music includes country music, pop, blues, and R&B.

What distinguishes CCM is it's association with pop music (you would say its a sub-category of rock....but who cares what it is called).

I am specifically talking about music in worship, not driving down the road listening to tunes or going to a concert. I am talking about contemporary worship music.


The difference here is twofold - the purpose (congregational worship) and the design (designed to be accessabke to the congregation, both in playing and singing the songs).