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The Absolute Sovereignty of God

E

Eternally Grateful

Active Member
KenH said:
God's elect are born spiritually dead, because of the fall of Adam, just like those whom God reprobated before the world began.
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al men are born spiritually dead.

the wage of sin is death
KenH said:
However, at some point during their time on earth, they will be brought under the hearing of the gospel of Christ and the Holy Spirit will regenerate them and grant them the gift of faith in Christ Jesus and the gift of repentance of dead works. With Christ as their Surety, it is impossible for God's elect to be lost.
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God will not make someone alive while still in a state of unbelief and condemnation. I am not sure where you come up with this
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
KenH said:
Maybe we are reading different threads. I am reading the thread where I proclaim the Biblical truth of the absolute sovereignty of God, and where you proclaim that God is not absolutely sovereign and in which you write a whole lot like a Deist would write.
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That is a rather odd comment from you. You say God is "absolutely sovereign" but then deny that very sovereignty by the restrictions you place on Him.

Again I have to ask, do you think there is a difference between God being "sovereign" and Him being "absolutely sovereign"? I note that it is only those of the C/R view that use the second term.

I don't place those restrictions as I know He is sovereign. But I do see that you as with most C/R's confuse sovereignty with control.

The Bible is clear that God is sovereign [in control] but He does not have to be controlling [divinely deterministic] as you require Him to be.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
KenH said:
Silverhair, I am serious.



I believe God's Word.
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Sorry Ken I can not actually take you seriously as you deny the word of God way to much by holding to that philosophy that Augustine brought into the church.

If you did believe the word of God then you would not disagree with it.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
@Silverhair

I don't place those restrictions as I know He is sovereign. But I do see that you as with most C/R's confuse sovereignty with control.
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Gods Sovereignty includes control. He controls a persons heart and can turn it at will Prov 21:1

The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Your not God and He would not call the illogical logical. We leave that form of silliness to those of the C/R view. You twist the word of God and use a different dictionary to support your rather odd views.
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Im not God but God is. We talking about what God did not me. He predetermined Adams fall into sin, and that he would sin with his own freewill. So that made Adam culpable !
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Benson Commentary on Prov 21:1

Proverbs 21:1. The king’s heart — His very inward purposes and inclinations, which seem to be most in a man’s own power, and out of the reach of all other beings; and much more his tongue, and hand, and all his outward actions; are in the hand of the Lord — Subject to the influence, control, and government of the great Lord of all.
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Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Im not God but God is. We talking about what God did not me. He predetermined Adams fall into sin, and that he would sin with his own freewill. So that made Adam culpable !
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Your thinking is really flawed BF

Predetermined: decided in advance, unchangeable

Freewill: The inherent ability of a person to make a contrary choice

If God predetermined the choices Adam made then it was God that is responsible for the sin.

If Adam had a real free will [not the C/R pseudo free will] then he is responsible for the sin.

God is not illogical but what you are saying BF is.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Your thinking is really flawed BF

Predetermined: decided in advance, unchangeable

Freewill: The inherent ability of a person to make a contrary choice

If God predetermined the choices Adam made then it was God that is responsible for the sin.

If Adam had a real free will [not the C/R pseudo free will] then he is responsible for the sin.

God is not illogical but what you are saying BF is.
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Its simple, God predetermined that Adam sin wilfully, so Adam is guilty, he did it responsibly as God determined.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
@Silverhair



Gods Sovereignty includes control. He controls a persons heart and can turn it at will Prov 21:1

The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
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The fact that the Lord overrules someone's heart does not prove C/R’s doctrine of the sovereign predestination of all things nor does it prove C/R’s doctrine that man cannot accept or reject God’s offer of salvation.

All it proves is that God is sovereign which we all agree upon.

We see in scripture that man has a free will

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.
Pro 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and turn away from evil.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Its simple, God predetermined that Adam sin wilfully, so Adam is guilty, he did it responsibly as God determined.
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Read what you wrote BF. God predetermined that Adam would sin. Could Adam do otherwise, not if God predetermined it he could not.

So Adam did not sin of his own free will BF, he sinned as God had determined that he would. Thus the responsibility falls back to God.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
The fact that the Lord overrules someone's heart does not prove C/R’s doctrine of the sovereign predestination of all things nor does it prove C/R’s doctrine that man cannot accept or reject God’s offer of salvation.

All it proves is that God is sovereign which we all agree upon.

We see in scripture that man has a free will

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.
Pro 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and turn away from evil.
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God controls the heart, its right there, do you believe scripture ? The King even, isnt free from Gods control. Also the word for heart , the hebrew word : leb:

the heart
2. also used (figuratively) very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect
3. likewise for the centre of anything,inner man, mind, will, heart


God can control your will, your will isnt free from His Sovereign control. And you still accountable to Him
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Read what you wrote BF. God predetermined that Adam would sin. Could Adam do otherwise, not if God predetermined it he could not.

So Adam did not sin of his own free will BF, he sinned as God had determined that he would. Thus the responsibility falls back to God.
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I have read it many many times. Its a truth

Could Adam do otherwise,
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Absolutely not, and thwart Gods Purpose to bring Christ into the world and redeem His elect ?

Same with Judas Iscariot, he could not do otherwise in betraying Christ . And Jesus said this about the fellow Matt 26:24

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Whose will and decision was it for that man to be born ? Was it his. Could he have chosen not to betray Christ with his own freewilly ? Is he guilty b4 God for doing something he was born and predestined to do ?
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
God controls the heart, its right there, do you believe scripture ? The King even, isnt free from Gods control. Also the word for heart , the hebrew word : leb:

the heart
2. also used (figuratively) very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect
3. likewise for the centre of anything,inner man, mind, will, heart


God can control your will, your will isnt free from His Sovereign control. And you still accountable to Him
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BF you are making the error of thinking one action means all actions. You are assuming that because God can do something then He has to do something.
By your view God is not sovereign, He has to follow the C/R's rules. So much for you saying God is "absolutely sovereign"

As I said, God being sovereign can control the heart but He does not have to determine all things as you seem to think as that would then make Him responsible for all the sin and evil in the world.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
I have read it many many times. Its a truth



Absolutely not, and thwart Gods Purpose to bring Christ into the world and redeem His elect ?

Same with Judas Iscariot, he could not do otherwise in betraying Christ . And Jesus said this about the fellow Matt 26:24

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Whose will and decision was it for that man to be born ? Was it his. Could he have chosen not to betray Christ with his own freewilly ? Is he guilty b4 God for doing something he was born and predestined to do ?
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BF you have been shown the error of your thinking but you will not actually trust the word of God but rather your false religious view of God.

I will continue to point out the errors you post but as for now I will let God deal with you.

May He forgive you for the way you have mistreated His word have mercy on your soul.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
BF you are making the error of thinking one action means all actions. You are assuming that because God can do something then He has to do something.
By your view God is not sovereign, He has to follow the C/R's rules. So much for you saying God is "absolutely sovereign"

As I said, God being sovereign can control the heart but He does not have to determine all things as you seem to think as that would then make Him responsible for all the sin and evil in the world.
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Yeah all actions of man are under Gods control, his entire walk or steps are ordered by the Lord. Lets look at Jeremiah 10:23

23 O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

If man doesnt direct his steps as the ho;y prophet understands, who does ?

Prov 16:9

A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

Learn wisdom friend, God directs a man steps. Do you know what a mans steps are ?
 
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