Has God Ordained a certain style for Musical worship?

[Scripture More Accurately]

Hmm.

Not conforming to the world is a key criterion for discerning what kinds of instrumental music are acceptable to God for use in corporate worship.

 

[JonC]

Hmm.

I was trying to find the Babylon Bee one about the song leader who got stuck in the song.

Anyway, the comic is funny but unfortunately untrue.

More Contemporary Worship is more God's Word than hymns. I still love the hymns (the lyrics) but noticed so many of our worship music is directly taken from various Psalms. And many are old hymns set to different music. But yes, contemporary worship musicusually has a chorus. Kinda like hymns....you sing a verse but the chorus repeats.

I only mention this because I don't want people taking the cartoon as anything more than a cartoon based on a stereotype.


Now....Christian Rock is different. Often it is Scripture set to music, but many times it originated from experience (like so many of our hymns). But it is rarely repetitive.

 

[John of Japan]

I was trying to find the Babylon Bee one about the song leader who got stuck in the song.

Anyway, the comic is funny but unfortunately untrue.

Actually, the comic is very true of any type of music: folk, classical, hymns, CCM, all music (but I meant it just for fun).

You must practice to play well, and the guy in the comic did not. You must think deeply to write the lyrics (are they biblical, helpful, glorifying God?). You must think of the hearer and how they will respond (God, the believers in the pew, the lost sinner).

Story time: in the 1970s I travelled with some guys in my college doing martial arts evangelism (so, well before CCM). We were sitting in the pews of a growing country church for a service in Spotsylvania, VA, when a man and his wife got up for a special number. He strummed his guitar, and his wife said, "George, you need to tune that thing." Actually, it sounded okay to Bobby my buddy and me, and both of us played guitar. George proceeded to tune his guitar out of tune, and Bobby and I were in stiches. Then they said, "Y'all pray for us, 'cause we ain't practiced much." Then they sang the most awful special number we had ever heard. It was a hymn, yes, but awful. Their special number did not glorify God.

There are biblical hymns, and then there are hymns with awful lyrics like "I Come to the Garden Alone." Some of the hymns by holiness writers have theologically poor lyrics. And I could go on.

My problem with this thread is that you never, ever admit anything wrong whatever with CCM. Apparently in your world the words of a CCM song are always biblical, the song always glorifies God (even if you weren't there and don't know what the song was), and the performers always practice well. You refused to admit any problems with a church rock band that caused physical discomfort to visitors. To you, even that glorified God.

 

[JonC]

Actually, the comic is very true of any type of music: folk, classical, hymns, CCM, all music (but I meant it just for fun).

You must practice to play well, and the guy in the comic did not. You must think deeply to write the lyrics (are they biblical, helpful, glorifying God?). You must think of the hearer and how they will respond (God, the believers in the pew, the lost sinner).

Story time: in the 1970s I travelled with some guys in my college doing martial arts evangelism (so, well before CCM). We were sitting in the pews of a growing country church for a service in Spotsylvania, VA, when a man and his wife got up for a special number. He strummed his guitar, and his wife said, "George, you need to tune that thing." Actually, it sounded okay to Bobby my buddy and me, and both of us played guitar. George proceeded to tune his guitar out of tune, and Bobby and I were in stiches. Then they said, "Y'all pray for us, 'cause we ain't practiced much." Then they sang the most awful special number we had ever heard. It was a hymn, yes, but awful. Their special number did not glorify God.

There are biblical hymns, and then there are hymns with awful lyrics like "I Come to the Garden Alone." Some of the hymns by holiness writers have theologically poor lyrics. And I could go on.

My problem with this thread is that you never, ever admit anything wrong whatever with CCM. Apparently in your world the words of a CCM song are always biblical, the song always glorifies God (even if you weren't there and don't know what the song was), and the performers always practice well. You refused to admit any problems with a church rock band that caused physical discomfort to visitors. To you, even that glorified God.

I actually don't mind "In the Garden". As a kid I never got the part where "He bids me go". It wasn't until I realized Miles had written it about Mary seeing the resurrected Jesus (John 20:11-18) that it made sense to me. I kinda like it now.

Obe of the best songs (I actually can't remember the song) was from a 95+ year old man. I can't say it sounded good, but I have to admit God was glorified in the man's worship.

Anyway, this is what I was trying to find....and finally did:

Worship Leader Caught In Infinite Loop Between Bridge And Chorus

SANTA ANA, CA—According to eyewitnesses at Tides Church, worship leader Wes Kimball was tragically caught in an infinite loop between the bridge and chorus of Chris Tomlin’s hit worship song How Great Is Our God.

babylonbee.com

 

[John of Japan]

Not conforming to the world is a key criterion for discerning what kinds of instrumental music are acceptable to God for use in corporate worship.

I completely agree.

I actually don't mind "In the Garden". As a kid I never got the part where "He bids me go". It wasn't until I realized Miles had written it about Mary seeing the resurrected Jesus (John 20:11-18) that it made sense to me. I kinda like it now.

Obe of the best songs (I actually can't remember the song) was from a 95+ year old man. I can't say it sounded good, but I have to admit God was glorified in the man's worship.

Anyway, this is what I was trying to find....and finally did:

Worship Leader Caught In Infinite Loop Between Bridge And Chorus

SANTA ANA, CA—According to eyewitnesses at Tides Church, worship leader Wes Kimball was tragically caught in an infinite loop between the bridge and chorus of Chris Tomlin’s hit worship song How Great Is Our God.

babylonbee.com

You have to love the Babylon Bee.

 

[JonC]

Not conforming to the world is a key criterion for discerning what kinds of instrumental music are acceptable to God for use in corporate worship.

Depends on what you mean.

Is using a paino conforming to the world because the instrument was not designed specifically for worship music? Obviously not. It isn't instruments.

But maybe it is how they are played. Is adopting the music of the world...like "What Child is This?", "Glorious Things of Thee are Spoken", "Christ the Lord is Risen Today" did conforming to the world? Maybe. They used secular music.

But then again, our older traditional hymns used music that were modeled after bar tunes because they were easy to sing.

Here Contemporary Worship music has an advantage over hymns.

While instruments that are used in secular music (like a paino, guitar, drums) are often used in contemporary worship the music itself is set apart from the music of the world (unlike hymns in relation to the music when they were written).

Nobody would hear a contemporary worship song without any lyrics and think that is the type of music the world is listening to. It is distinctinct, not like the music sung in bars that inspired the music of traditional hymns.

That said, I do not believe that hymns are wrong because the music was secular at the time. The common ground with contemporary worship music is they are singable and biblical. So I say, sing your hymns without guilt. If you can't then for conscious sake change to contemporary worship.

Now....Christian Rock, Christian country, Christian rap....thats another story....but those have another purpose.

You have to love the Babylon Bee.

Yea...that one is my favorite one.

And I would consider that a real objection and maybe the soundest objection to it.
The question has to be asked: Even if a Rock song has incredibly great lyrics, if they are unintelligible (at least to many) are they then not particularly edifying?

Mind you, I loathed this objection as a youngster when the fuddy-duddies asked it, and to be fair, they might often have used that objection simply because they personally disliked it and not asked it in good faith (if you take my meaning). However, I must admit that it is a real objection that raises meaningful questions.

I think that there is a distinction between Contemporary Worship music and other types of CCM (like Christian Rock, Christian Rap, etc.).

Christian Worship music is designed to be sung (I doubt anybody woukd have a hard time understanding the lyrics). The accompanying music is fairly simplistic (and simple to play).

This was the reason that hymns used secular music of their time, or modeled their music on songs sung in taverns. They were easily sung.

The rest of CCM is both Christian entertainment and evangelism (like Christian movies and TV shows), but to people who listen to that type of music. My son listens to Christian rap-hip hop. I can't understand a word. He can.


In other words, I get why people who do not like rap would mot like Christian rap. Same with any other type of music.

I do not quite get the objection to Contemporary Worship music, especially given the origins of the music that accompany traditional hymns. It seems hypocritical.

How can somebody sing a hymn set to a secular English song, or modled off of tavern songs, and complain about the music accompanying Contemporary Worship music being too secular (especially when it sounds nothing like secular music)?

But at the same time consider that the style of music accompanying traditional hymns originated from tavern and folk songs.

This is a complete myth. You cannot name a single hymn that came from a tavern song.

Here is an essay about this accusation against the Wesleys by someone who did the research you could have done: Wesleys' Tavern Songs

Here is another about the charge that Luther used drinking songs: Which Of Our Favorite Hymns Are Rewritten "bar" Songs?

We do have Christian music from folk songs, however: "I Have Decided" (India), "What Child Is This" (England), etc.

Look through a hymnbook. Every song has the author of the music on the left and the author of the tune on the right. In an appendix in many hymnbooks you can find the sources for many hymns. You will look forever and not find a single tavern source. Instead, you will find great hymnwriters like Charles Gabriel (traveled with the great evangelists), P. P. Bliss (traveled with Moody), John W. Peterson, and Alfred B. Smith (a friend of my grandfather who I have met). Even the great "We Shall Overcome" was patterned after a hymn written by a faithful black pastor named Charles Albert Tindley whose son Elbert was a great singer--traveled with my grandfather for years.

In fact, believe it or not, I wrote a song myself that is in a Japanese hymnbook, and it was not from a tavern song.

Yes, I can. But by tavern songs I dont mean merely drinking music. I mean folk songs often sung in taverns.
Greensleeves was a tavern (and folk) song. Some think Lady Green Sleeves was a prostitute, others just a woman, but it was a tavern song before accompanying a hymn.

BUT @John of Japan , you had me for a moment. I almost didn't catch the change you made.

I did not say they used drinking songs, or tavern songs. I said they used the style. I was thinking about Luther, not because of reading he did but because German tavern and folk music is the same type used in Luther's hymns.

You could put Christian lyrics to Es führt über den Main (secular music from early 1900's) and it'd fit right in your hymnal.

Hymns used the same type of music for a reason. They are easily sung and played (unless you choose to get fancy).

Nobody sat around in the 16th century thinking of a way to invent a new type of sacred Western music. They simply wrote and sung to praise God.

I reject the idea that Christians should condemn the praise of those in remote areas because their worship music is too country, or bluegrass. And I reject the idea people shoukd condemn the worship of others because they sing hymns to more contemporary music. I also reject condemning the worship of those who prefer those hymns, which used a secular style no longer popular.

Until you can document this, I disagree.

You did say "tavern song" at the beginning of this post just now. But really, when is a "song sung in a tavern" not a "tavern song"? And how do you know that "Green Sleeves" was sung in taverns? Do you have a source for that? But even if it was, it was still a folk song, not a "tavern song," whatever that might be. (I'm still not sure.) Folk artists Simon and Garfunkel made a hit out of it! "Amazing Grace" became a secular hit song by Aretha Franklin in 1972--probably on juke boxes in bars! So that proves nothing about the style or content of the song.


This is nebulous. Can you document this?

Irrelevant. But I will say that I believe there is more influence in the old hymns from classical music than folk or other secular styles. Check the hymnbooks for Mendelssohn (4 hymns in our hymnbook), Beethoven (3 hymns), Bach, Haydn, etc.

What you are missing is that most of the "hymns" we sing today are from the end of the 19th century, when they were called "Gospel songs." (I recently read a biography of Charles Gabriel which verifies this.) They were a different style from the traditional hymn. Writers included Charles Gabriel (8 in our hymnbook), P. P. Bliss (14 in our hymnbook), etc. John W. Peterson wrote in this style, and we have 47 songs by him in our hymnbook, Great Hymns of the Faith. That's almost a tenth of the hymnbook, which has 541 songs. His songs are definitely not traditional hymns.


I have not done this.

By the way, I heard recently that BJU now has a bluegrass group!! And here they are (unreal!):

I may have said "tavern song" (although I did clarify I meant type of music and folk songs).

Have you ever heard the song "What Child is This?"? If so, did you know that the music is from a late 1500's folk songs called "Greensleeves"? Did you know that in England Greensleeves was a popular folk song often sung in taverns?

That is just one example.

By saying "tavern music" I do not mean "drinking music" but the music found in taverns. Taverns certainly included drinking but they were also social hubs. In other words, I mean popular songs at the time that were easily sung in a group setting, not "100 bottles of beer on the wall".


You are associating my comment with drinking. I am talking about the type of music (the style).

 

[John of Japan]

I think that there is a distinction between Contemporary Worship music and other types of CCM (like Christian Rock, Christian Rap, etc.).

Christian Worship music is designed to be sung (I doubt anybody woukd have a hard time understanding the lyrics). The accompanying music is fairly simplistic (and simple to play).

This was the reason that hymns used secular music of their time, or modeled their music on songs sung in taverns. They were easily sung.

This is a complete myth. You cannot name a single hymn that came from a tavern song.

Here is an essay about this accusation against the Wesleys by someone who did the research you could have done: Wesleys' Tavern Songs

Here is another about the charge that Luther used drinking songs: Which Of Our Favorite Hymns Are Rewritten "bar" Songs?

We do have Christian music from folk songs, however: "I Have Decided" (India), "What Child Is This" (England), etc.

Look through a hymnbook. Every song has the author of the music on the left and the author of the tune on the right. In an appendix in many hymnbooks you can find the sources for many hymns. You will look forever and not find a single tavern source. Instead, you will find great hymnwriters like Charles Gabriel (traveled with the great evangelists), P. P. Bliss (traveled with Moody), John W. Peterson, and Alfred B. Smith (a friend of my grandfather who I have met). Even the great "We Shall Overcome" was patterned after a hymn written by a faithful black pastor named Charles Albert Tindley whose son Elbert was a great singer--traveled with my grandfather for years.

In fact, believe it or not, I wrote a song myself that is in a Japanese hymnbook, and it was not from a tavern song.

Folks, I consider John W. Peterson (1921-2006) to be the greatest hymnwriter of the 20th century. Here is a website devoted to honoring him: John W. Peterson Music: Welcome

He wrote so many great songs of all kinds--except CCM I'm sure. And almost always he wrote both words and music.

But at the same time consider that the style of music accompanying traditional hymns originated from tavern and folk songs.

Until you can document this, I disagree.

Yes, I can. But by tavern songs I dont mean merely drinking music. I mean folk songs often sung in taverns.
Greensleeves was a tavern (and folk) song. Some think Lady Green Sleeves was a prostitute, others just a woman, but it was a tavern song before accompanying a hymn.

BUT @John of Japan , you had me for a moment. I almost didn't catch the change you made.

You did say "tavern song" at the beginning of this post just now. But really, when is a "song sung in a tavern" not a "tavern song"? And how do you know that "Green Sleeves" was sung in taverns? Do you have a source for that? But even if it was, it was still a folk song, not a "tavern song," whatever that might be. (I'm still not sure.) Folk artists Simon and Garfunkel made a hit out of it! "Amazing Grace" became a secular hit song by Aretha Franklin in 1972--probably on juke boxes in bars! So that proves nothing about the style or content of the song.

I did not say they used drinking songs, or tavern songs. I said they used the style. I was thinking about Luther, not because of reading he did but because German tavern and folk music is the same type used in Luther's hymns.

This is nebulous. Can you document this?

You could put Christian lyrics to Es führt über den Main (secular music from early 1900's) and it'd fit right in your hymnal.

Irrelevant. But I will say that I believe there is more influence in the old hymns from classical music than folk or other secular styles. Check the hymnbooks for Mendelssohn (4 hymns in our hymnbook), Beethoven (3 hymns), Bach, Haydn, etc.

Hymns used the same type of music for a reason. They are easily sung and played (unless you choose to get fancy).

Nobody sat around in the 16th century thinking of a way to invent a new type of sacred Western music. They simply wrote and sung to praise God.

What you are missing is that most of the "hymns" we sing today are from the end of the 19th century, when they were called "Gospel songs." (I recently read a biography of Charles Gabriel which verifies this.) They were a different style from the traditional hymn. Writers included Charles Gabriel (8 in our hymnbook), P. P. Bliss (14 in our hymnbook), etc. John W. Peterson wrote in this style, and we have 47 songs by him in our hymnbook, Great Hymns of the Faith. That's almost a tenth of the hymnbook, which has 541 songs. His songs are definitely not traditional hymns.

I reject the idea that Christians should condemn the praise of those in remote areas because their worship music is too country, or bluegrass. And I reject the idea people shoukd condemn the worship of others because they sing hymns to more contemporary music. I also reject condemning the worship of those who prefer those hymns, which used a secular style no longer popular.

I have not done this.

By the way, I heard recently that BJU now has a bluegrass group!! And here they are (unreal!):

 

[JonC]

Folks,

Here is an example of what I am talking about. One of these secular songs is from the 1500's and two are from the early 1900's.

Mind you - these are secular songs. These are types of music that those who wrote hymns would know as secular music.

Secular music from the early 1900's

Secular song popular in English taverns (first time in in print was 1580):

Secular song 1906

 

[Some Rando]

I think that there is a distinction between Contemporary Worship music and other types of CCM (like Christian Rock, Christian Rap, etc.).

I do not quite get the objection to Contemporary Worship music, especially given the origins of the music that accompany traditional hymns. It seems hypocritical.

I don't know if I somehow confused you about my views, but, I have no objection to Contemporary Worship Music. Like you, I have a great appreciation for the fact that it commonly puts the Psalms to music; something I think was sadly lacking in the more "traditional" worship and hymns I sang growing up. I noticed that trend about 15 years ago, and it's something I'm glad you mentioned.

Other than "As the Deer", I know of very few Psalms set to music in any "traditional" church I have ever attended which is scores of them.

There are, IMO two types of Christian music, indeed music generally:
1.) Good music
2.) Bad music

Any given song may jump from one to the other in a given context and whether it is "fit for purpose".

As far as rap goes......that's a bridge too far for me.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

"Christian" rock is an oxymoron akin to "Christian" witchcraft--there is no such thing as "Christian" rock or "Christian" witchcraft. Rock music is occult music that consecrated believers must categorically reject.

 

[JesusFan]

I don't know if I somehow confused you about my views, but, I have no objection to Contemporary Worship Music. Like you, I have a great appreciation for the fact that it commonly puts the Psalms to music; something I think was sadly lacking in the more "traditional" worship and hymns I sang growing up. I noticed that trend about 15 years ago, and it's something I'm glad you mentioned.

Other than "As the Deer", I know of very few Psalms set to music in any "traditional" church I have ever attended which is scores of them.

There are, IMO two types of Christian music, indeed music generally:
1.) Good music
2.) Bad music

Any given song may jump from one to the other in a given context and whether it is "fit for purpose".

As far as rap goes......that's a bridge too far for me.

How about when those such as Elvis did Gospel, or U2?

"Christian" rock is an oxymoron akin to "Christian" witchcraft--there is no such thing as "Christian" rock or "Christian" witchcraft. Rock music is occult music that consecrated believers must categorically reject.

Depends upon the lyrics

 

[John of Japan]

An American pop song from 1918 that my mother taught to me. My opinion: this would be really hard to make into a hymn!

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Depends upon the lyrics

Nope. Regardless of whatever the lyrics are, rock music is occult music that believers must categorically reject.

 

[JonC]

An American pop song from 1918 that my mother taught to me. My opinion: this would be really hard to make into a hymn!

Do you believe that Greensleeves (a late 16th century secular folk song) or The Water is Wide (an early 20th century secular song) would be difficult to make into a hymn?

If somebody made a Christian song using Greensleeves as the accompanying music would it be dishonoring to God?

 

[JonC]

Nope. Regardless of whatever the lyrics are, rock music is occult music that believers must categorically reject.

That is a very strange opinion. Can you defend it?

 

[John of Japan]

I may have said "tavern song" (although I did clarify I meant type of music and folk songs).

Have you ever heard the song "What Child is This?"? If so, did you know that the music is from a late 1500's folk songs called "Greensleeves"? Did you know that in England Greensleeves was a popular folk song often sung in taverns?

Sigh. I've already tried to interact with you twice on this. In the last one I asked for proof that this song was sung in taverns, but was ignored.

Yes, I know all about this folk song. I've played guitar since I was 14, so 59 years now. And my favorite non-Christian genre is folk music. I've played this song many, many times both as a folk song and a Christmas song.

That is just one example.

By saying "tavern music" I do not mean "drinking music" but the music found in taverns. Taverns certainly included drinking but they were also social hubs. In other words, I mean popular songs at the time that were easily sung in a group setting, not "100 bottles of beer on the wall".

All of this is fine, but you have yet to prove that the genre of hymns comes from "tavern music," however you define that. If you want to be precise about your point, you should be saying that folk songs (not "tavern music") is the source of the genre of hymns. That would present your position more accurately. But you would still have to prove it, which you have not done. (And I have not mentioned "99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall" or any similar song.)

You are associating my comment with drinking. I am talking about the type of music (the style).

I certainly have not done this. I have only gone as far as you have. Please look back at my post #79, which you either completely ignored or completely missed. I think I make some cogent points there.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

That is a very strange opinion. Can you defend it?

My position is not strange at all. It was the predominantly held position among God's people 40-50 years ago until the false teaching that music without words is inherently amoral, neutral, or good was propagated as part of the justification for bringing in the abomination of rock music into the Church.

The Bible does not anywhere teach that any and all kinds of music without words are all acceptable to God. It also does not teach that God does not care about what kinds of instrumental music are used to worship Him as long as the words that are sung are "Christian."

 

[Ben1445]

And I would consider that a real objection and maybe the soundest objection to it.
The question has to be asked: Even if a Rock song has incredibly great lyrics, if they are unintelligible (at least to many) are they then not particularly edifying?

Mind you, I loathed this objection as a youngster when the fuddy-duddies asked it, and to be fair, they might often have used that objection simply because they personally disliked it and not asked it in good faith (if you take my meaning). However, I must admit that it is a real objection that raises meaningful questions.

I had a boss in high school who informed me one day that the music on the radio was a Christian song. I had no idea. Not only was the sound repulsive to me but it was, very importantly, unintelligible. So much for edification.
Since then I have taken every opportunity at work to ask people about the music they are listening to. About 70% of the time, people don’t have any idea what the words are or what the song is about. They listen because it makes them feel good. I worked with a DJ (his side gig, not mine) and he didn’t know any more of the music than anyone else. It is not different in churches. While I don’t have numbers to compare because I couldn’t sit and listen to it, I’d be surprised if most anyone really paid attention to what they were hearing.

 

[JonC]

My position is not strange at all. It was the predominantly held position among God's people 40-50 years ago until the false teaching that music without words is inherently amoral, neutral, or good was propagated as part of the justification for bringing in the abomination of rock music into the Church.

The Bible does not anywhere teach that any and all kinds of music without words are all acceptable to God. It also does not teach that God does not care about what kinds of instrumental music are used to worship Him as long as the words that are sung are "Christian."

But the Bible does not teach anywhere that only certain types of music and certain types of instruments are acceptable either.

The Bible does not teach anywhere that a paino is an acceptable instrument for worship, therefore it is unacceptable and ungodly.

The Bible does not teach anywhere that a focus on harmony in music (a Wrstern trait) is acceptable to God, therefore it is ungodly.

The Bible does not teach anywhere that we should have a choir, a music leader, a pulpit, a sanctuary, a baptism pool, etc. Therefore these are occult and unacceptable to God (by your logic).

Basically you are elevating your opinion to the level of God. If Scripture does not mention it then your opinion determines what God accepts.


I am asking why you belueve that rock music (without lyrics) is occult. There has to be a readon (other than the Bible does not mention paints, drums, guitars, electric keyboards, air conditioning, pews, etc).

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

But the Bible does not teach anywhere that only certain types of music and certain types of instruments are acceptable either.

The Bible does not have to specifically say that only certain types of music and instruments are acceptable. God in His perfect wisdom has given prohibitions that apply to all areas of life unless it is proven from Scripture that those prohibitions do not apply to anything that has to do with certain areas of life.

God commands us not to be conformed to this world:

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Those who say that this command does not apply to any kinds of instrumental music or musical instruments that the world uses in its evil activities must prove from Scripture why this command does not apply to any of the world's musical instruments or kinds of instrumental music.

Anyone who takes the position that God approves of the use of all musical instruments and all kinds of instrumental music in corporate worship has the burden of proof of showing where the Scripture teaches us that is true. If one cannot show from Scripture that is true, he cannot validly claim that Romans 12:2a does not apply to any of the world's musical instruments and kinds of music.