Well, actually, there are...
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God Causes or Allows Whatsoever Comes to Pass.
- Thread starter Van
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Well, actually, there are...
He and some others here, seem to be stuck on seeing God sovereignty as if was fatalism or Hyper Calvinistic only
There are none when taken in proper context state that to us
There are none when taken in proper context state that to us
Our God does not "roll the dice"
Ecclesiastes Chapter 9
11 | I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. |
I agree with mainstream Primitive Baptist's 'Overruling Providence':
Romans Chapter 8
28 | And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. |
...and not Calvinism's' 'Predestination of all things that happen' (like the mosquito that bit me last night):
And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind. Jer 7:31
and have built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons in the fire for burnt-offerings unto Baal; which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Jer 19:5
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. Jer 32:35
hello Kyredneck, Thanks for your response. Were you just playing the so called devil's advocate or do you think these passages support this idea?
I am not sure you would like to use these verses to defend this idea being expressed ,do you? Let's take for example your jer.32 passage.
Do you really want to suggest that our God who knows the end from the beginning, actual has some possibilities that He has in some way, failed to consider? How would this misuse of this verse square with His Omniscience?
Tell me what's wrong with my use of these passages (I know you're foaming at the bit to)...lol
If we choose not to put our faith and commitment in Christ, then God will not credit our unbelief as righteousness, as He as already condemned it. But if we choose to put our faith and commitment in Christ, that will not save us, but only if God chooses to credit our faith and commitment as righteousness, then God and God alone will save us.
False teachers try to claim we cannot come to faith, but 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen for salvation through "faith in the truth." They use various absurd arguments to nullify this biblical truth, claiming we were chosen for salvation before we had faith.
The solution of course, for this dilemma caused by not correctly understanding either 2 Thessalonians 2:13 or Ephesians 1:4, is to accept that the election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate, as when God chose His Redeemer before creation, He corporately, but not individually, chose those His Redeemer would redeem. This view is necessitated by 1 Peter 2:9-10, because that passage precludes being chosen individually for salvation before we were once not a people chosen for God's own possession, and once we had not received mercy.
All of scripture fits together perfectly, when we rightly divide its truth as authorized workmen not needing to be ashamed. Those that need to nullify verse after verse, rather than reverse course and check their assumptions or understanding of the verses that are the basis of their beliefs.
False teachers try to claim we cannot come to faith, but 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen for salvation through "faith in the truth." They use various absurd arguments to nullify this biblical truth, claiming we were chosen for salvation before we had faith.
The solution of course, for this dilemma caused by not correctly understanding either 2 Thessalonians 2:13 or Ephesians 1:4, is to accept that the election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate, as when God chose His Redeemer before creation, He corporately, but not individually, chose those His Redeemer would redeem. This view is necessitated by 1 Peter 2:9-10, because that passage precludes being chosen individually for salvation before we were once not a people chosen for God's own possession, and once we had not received mercy.
All of scripture fits together perfectly, when we rightly divide its truth as authorized workmen not needing to be ashamed. Those that need to nullify verse after verse, rather than reverse course and check their assumptions or understanding of the verses that are the basis of their beliefs.
No, it sounds like the gospel of grace. Why do you think otherwise? Salvation does NOT depend upon the person who wills or runs, but upon the One who has mercy. Romans 9:16
If we choose not to put our faith and commitment in Christ, then God will not credit our unbelief as righteousness, as He as already condemned it. But if we choose to put our faith and commitment in Christ, that will not save us, but only if God chooses to credit our faith and commitment as righteousness, then God and God alone will save us.
Romans 9:16 NASB95
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
KYREDNECK, I found this article that might be of interest to you as it answers your post very well.
frame-poythress.org
pt1
I appreciate the question. It is an important one, given the ways in which issues about chance come up both in scientific reflections and in everyday life.
The question is difficult to answer in a few words (I have a whole book on the subject).Vern S. Poythress, Chance and the Sovereignty of God: A God-Centered Approach to Probability and Random Events (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2014). To begin with, it is useful to ask what each person means by his words. Otherwise, we may miscommunicate. The Merriam-Webster online dictionary offers no less than five senses for the word chance.
Let us consider the first meaning. “Chance” events are what we as human beings cannot causally explain. Either we can discern no cause for a single event, or we can give no full reason for why two trains of events intersect at a particular time and place. The outcome of flipping a coin is unpredictable, and so we say that the coin came up heads “by chance.” Two cars happened to go into an intersection at the same time, so that they collided “by chance.”
The lack of explanation is related to the limitations in human knowledge. Human knowledge should be contrasted with the comprehensive character of God’s knowledge. That is why the second meaning, where “Chance” is an ultimate determiner, should be rejected. The second meaning pretends that “Chance” is a godlike source for events.
How should Christians understand chance and randomness?
I appreciate the question. It is an important one, given the ways in which issues about chance come up both in scientific reflections and in everyday life. The question is difficult to answer in a …
frame-poythress.org
How should Christians understand chance and randomness?
September 26, 2019 By Vern PoythressI appreciate the question. It is an important one, given the ways in which issues about chance come up both in scientific reflections and in everyday life.
The question is difficult to answer in a few words (I have a whole book on the subject).Vern S. Poythress, Chance and the Sovereignty of God: A God-Centered Approach to Probability and Random Events (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2014). To begin with, it is useful to ask what each person means by his words. Otherwise, we may miscommunicate. The Merriam-Webster online dictionary offers no less than five senses for the word chance.
Two meanings of “chance”
For theological purposes, I find it useful to distinguish at least two meanings of “chance.” According to the first meaning, a “chance” event is an unpredictable event for which we can give no satisfying causal explanation (Merriam-Webster, sense 1a). According to the second meaning,Human knowledge should be contrasted with the comprehensive character of God’s knowledge. “Chance” (which I choose to capitalize) serves as an ultimate impersonal cause or explanation, as a fundamental aspect of the world. Merriam-Webster, sense 1b, says: “the assumed impersonal purposeless determiner of unaccountable happenings.” The second meaning, but not the first, is out of accord with a biblically based worldview.Let us consider the first meaning. “Chance” events are what we as human beings cannot causally explain. Either we can discern no cause for a single event, or we can give no full reason for why two trains of events intersect at a particular time and place. The outcome of flipping a coin is unpredictable, and so we say that the coin came up heads “by chance.” Two cars happened to go into an intersection at the same time, so that they collided “by chance.”
The lack of explanation is related to the limitations in human knowledge. Human knowledge should be contrasted with the comprehensive character of God’s knowledge. That is why the second meaning, where “Chance” is an ultimate determiner, should be rejected. The second meaning pretends that “Chance” is a godlike source for events.
God’s comprehensive rule pt2
The idea of chance has a role in Christian understanding because it is tied to our view of God. We need to consider the nature of God’s knowledge and the nature of his actions ruling the world. Open theism maintains that certain future events, in particular events due to free human decisions, are presently unknown to God as well as to man. But I believe that this position is not consistent with Scripture. God knows all things. Not only that—his plan for world history is comprehensive,But, in my view, the challenges do not prevent us from acknowledging all three—God’s control, human choice, and sin. including not only broad outlines of history, but also minutiae: “even the hairs of your head are all numbered” (Matt. 10:30). “Will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?” (Matt. 6:30; cf John 19:24, 36–37).We find challenges in holding together God’s comprehensive control with the reality of human choice and the reality of sin. But, in my view, the challenges do not prevent us from acknowledging all three—God’s control, human choice, and sin.
The result is that no chance exists for God, who knows all things and determines all things. His plan and determination include what we call chance events. There is genuine chance for us as human beings with limited knowledge. Chance events are events for which we do not discern an observable cause.
God knows completely what are the limitations of human knowledge, and he can speak to us about our own human point of view, which is real. So God himself can speak of an event as happening by chance:
God created the world, and he governs it now in such a way that there is a real distinction between things that we know and things that we do not know. Some things remain secret to us as long as this world exists (Deut. 29:29). Even in the new heaven and the new earth, we remain human and our knowledge is limited rather than identical with the comprehensive knowledge of God. The word chance can play a significant role in distinguishing between God’s knowledge and ours.
Moreover, the Bible distinguishes between God as primary cause and secondary causes within the created world. The disasters that befell Job serve as a good example. Job acknowledged that God brought about the disasters:
In Job’s life, God was the primary cause. There were also secondary causes, such as marauding Sabeans, fire from heaven, and “a great wind” (1:19). In addition, Satan was, if you will, a kind of tertiary cause. Job was aware of the distinction between primary cause and secondary causes, and this distinction makes sense to anyone who knows about the God described the Bible.
“Chance” events are often ones for which we can give no complete account in terms of secondary causes. There may still be such causes, but we do not know them, or do not know them completely. With Job, we should still affirm that God is there as the primary cause.
What about miracles? For some miracles there may be no secondary causes, or only inadequate causes. Yet typically we do not describe miracles as “chance” events.Yet, according to the biblical teaching concerning God’s involvement in the world, he is the primary cause for all events whatsoever. No event is totally without a cause. Why not? Possibly because we affirm vigorously the action of God as primary cause. Yet, according to the biblical teaching concerning God’s involvement in the world, he is the primary cause for all events whatsoever. No event is totally without a cause.
Is there then an inconsistency in the use of the word “chance”? Possibly. But perhaps the meaning in ordinary cases involves the idea of something being unaccountable. In the case of a flip of a coin or two cars colliding in an intersection, we can infer that God is the primary cause, yet the event is still unaccountable, because we cannot discern a reason why God would bring about such an event. God always has his purposes, but we cannot discern them. On the other hand, with a miracle we can begin to discern at least some purposes. Jesus healed the leper in Matthew 8:1–4 as an act of mercy, in order to answer his request and in order that he would be healed. The act also functioned as a sign of the coming of the kingdom in the person of Jesus and his ministry. So we can give an account, even though an appeal to secondary causes would not be adequate.
Randomness pt3
What about the idea of “randomness”? It is a term closely related to “chance.” Many of the same issues come up. Once again, people may differ in what they mean. Merriam-Webster online provides two senses for the adjective random, and each of these two has two subdivisions. So there is complexity. Sense 1a is “lacking a definite plan, purpose, or pattern.” In the entry as a whole, Merriam-Webster uses the example of a person choosing “random” passages from a book. Once again, we can see a distinction between God’s plans and human plans. A human being can open a book “at random,” which means that he does not deliberately choose any one page. It is “by chance,” then, that he opens it to page 125, let us say. The lack of human planning or intention, and the lack of predictability from a human point of view, is not in tension with an affirmation that the result of a “random” choice is known beforehand by God and unfolds according to the comprehensive plan of God.The word random also occurs in mathematical contexts. The mathematical reasoning about randomness shows again and again the beauty of mathematical regularity in calculations concerning random processes. What is “random” shows the patterning of the wisdom of God. It becomes a source of praise.
Sometimes people wonder whether the randomness in quantum events represents a special case that shows a limitation in God’s rule over the world. But the answer is basically the same: this randomness has to do with a limitation in human knowledge. Quantum mechanics is a particularly fascinating case, because the limitation seems to be absolute. No increase in knowledge within the world can overcome the uncertainties in quantum events. These uncertainties seem to be innate, unlike the uncertainty in flipping a coin. This innateness, though unique, is itself part of the structural design that God has for the world. It does not produce tension with his control, because he is not a part of the world.
How should Christians understand chance and randomness?
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Yes, one of the meanings of a Hebrew word is "without definite aim" and is translated as "random in 1 Kings 22:34 and 2 Chronicles 18:33.
But the actual issue is the false claim, all the chance events simply reflect the human perspective, but God's plan has Him in complete control of everything that happens. An archer launches an arrow without definite aim and it lands in a crevice of the kings armor. Does the verse say God caused the arrow to land exactly where it did? Nope, so the claim has no actual support. On the other hand, every word is inspired, chosen by God to convey His message, so without explicit reference to human perception only, such a nullification claim is without merit.
God's comprehensive plan could be for some things to happen by chance, without being predetermined, or being caused by God, such as our sin. Since God is not the author of sin, God did not predestine our each and every sin.
But the actual issue is the false claim, all the chance events simply reflect the human perspective, but God's plan has Him in complete control of everything that happens. An archer launches an arrow without definite aim and it lands in a crevice of the kings armor. Does the verse say God caused the arrow to land exactly where it did? Nope, so the claim has no actual support. On the other hand, every word is inspired, chosen by God to convey His message, so without explicit reference to human perception only, such a nullification claim is without merit.
God's comprehensive plan could be for some things to happen by chance, without being predetermined, or being caused by God, such as our sin. Since God is not the author of sin, God did not predestine our each and every sin.
Proverbs 16:33 NASB
The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the LORD.
This verse is sometimes cited to support the claim that God causes everything that happens, including what appears to humans as chance or random events. However, the verse supports no such claim.
The LORD could cause an outcome or allow a random outcome. Either would be from the Lord who causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. Thus, like all the rest of the "God causes everything according to His plan" arguments, the support is simply read into the verse, where none actually exists.
The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the LORD.
This verse is sometimes cited to support the claim that God causes everything that happens, including what appears to humans as chance or random events. However, the verse supports no such claim.
The LORD could cause an outcome or allow a random outcome. Either would be from the Lord who causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. Thus, like all the rest of the "God causes everything according to His plan" arguments, the support is simply read into the verse, where none actually exists.
"Hope and reconciliation"
The actual gospel of Christ offers hope for reconciliation to lost humanity. Some wrongly claim we were either saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and there is nothing we can do to alter that outcome for ourselves or our loved ones. But that is a false gospel.
God was continuing to reconcile the lost in the past, but He has not stopped reconciling because He gave believers the ministry of reconciliation. God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. Thus our individual election occurs after we place our faith in Christ during our physical lives. This is also wrongly denied by some.
The premise that everything has been predetermined presents a gospel of futility, but scripture presents a gospel of Hope and Reconciliation.
The actual gospel of Christ offers hope for reconciliation to lost humanity. Some wrongly claim we were either saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and there is nothing we can do to alter that outcome for ourselves or our loved ones. But that is a false gospel.
God was continuing to reconcile the lost in the past, but He has not stopped reconciling because He gave believers the ministry of reconciliation. God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. Thus our individual election occurs after we place our faith in Christ during our physical lives. This is also wrongly denied by some.
The premise that everything has been predetermined presents a gospel of futility, but scripture presents a gospel of Hope and Reconciliation.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Another way to say what Van wrote is this:
“Sometimes God acts this way, and sometimes God acts that way; we just never know with that God of ours. Sometimes God is the One acting and sometimes God is the One acted upon.”
People like Van have an image in their minds of God as being like the gods of Greek mythology or the "superheroes" of modern day Marvel movies.
The Biblical truth is that ALL things whatsoever are for God’s glory. Period. Regardless of the inability of fallen man’s puny brain, and that is all of us, to comprehend the why or the how.